Grumman F-14 Tomcat

i found information (only in few sentence)
That Germany look into option to buy F-14 Tomcats

Even West Germany was in the early '70 a possible customer for the F-14.
The German Luftwaffe Lt.General Steinhof even visited the Grumman production line. For this occasion, a Luftwaffe Tomcat patch was designed (left).
Note that the German word "Kater" means nothing else than "Tomcat".
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Got some one more Information about that ?

source: http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-history-f14a-export.htm
 
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German was favor for F-86, F-104G, Mako(mock-up trainer), and Eurofighter, (plus Bf109, Fw190) kinds of tactical short range interceptors, except F-4F.

It is interesting to me that Luftwafffe considered long-range interceptor.
 
litzj said:
German was favor for F-86, F-104G, Mako(mock-up trainer), and Eurofighter, (plus Bf109, Fw190) kinds of tactical short range interceptors, except F-4F.

It is interesting to me that Luftwafffe considered long-range interceptor.
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Is it possible, that German general just want to see something, similar to Tornado - a swing-wing, two-engine combat aircraft and discuss it's advantages and disadvantages with the designers? It's not a big deal to made presentation patch, or even model :cool:

Of course, it's also possible, that Luftwaffe studied their future proposals and requirements.
 
litzj said:
German was favor for F-86, F-104G, Mako(mock-up trainer), and Eurofighter, (plus Bf109, Fw190) kinds of tactical short range interceptors, except F-4F.

It is interesting to me that Luftwafffe considered long-range interceptor.
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not quite, litzj

Luftwaffe wanted low level flight air superiority Fighter/Bomber/aerial reconnaissance and ground support in one Aircraft
So became the High altitude Interceptor F-104, the multi role combat F-104G on shoe string budget.
but obvious reason the F-104G could not fulfill it role
Special for long range patrol/aerial reconnaissance flight for Navy, what let to insane F-104Z proposal (two F-104G bolted together)

But end of the 1960s were plans to equip the Luftwaffe with heavy multi role combat aircraft (two engine with swing-wing)
with studies of US/German projects Boeing/EWR 360 and Republic/EWR A400 VTOL project or The Panavia Tornado program
In beginn that had to be two aircraft: two man Bomber and one pilot Fighter, based on same Airframe with swing-wing

Somewhere in process the F-14 Tomcat was under consideration in begin 1970s.

But in end became the Panavia Tornado, a Two man heavy multi role combat aircraft and Luftwaffe buy the F-4 Phantom as interceptor/reconnaissance plane.
and studies for new Fighter jets began, what let in 1979 to the European Collaborative Fighter and finally to the Eurofighter.


Silencer1 said:
litzj said:
German was favor for F-86, F-104G, Mako(mock-up trainer), and Eurofighter, (plus Bf109, Fw190) kinds of tactical short range interceptors, except F-4F.

It is interesting to me that Luftwafffe considered long-range interceptor.
Click to expand...

Is it possible, that German general just want to see something, similar to Tornado - a swing-wing, two-engine combat aircraft and discuss it's advantages and disadvantages with the designers? It's not a big deal to made presentation patch, or even model :cool:

Of course, it's also possible, that Luftwaffe studied their future proposals and requirements.
Click to expand...

yes, Silencer1
like i mention above the Luftwaffe wanted heavy twin engine Military Aircraft, the Tornado was perfect but they needed a Interceptor so hello F-4 Phantom
And the participation of German Aerospace Industry in The Panavia Tornado project had certain role in this story

Grumman made nice presentation patch for German Tomcat
 

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I heard Germany also considered the F-15 and during in the prehistory of the Typhoon (1977) their absolute reference was the F-18L (reference in the sense: smallest and lightest twin jet high performance combat aircraft).
So I'm not surprised they considered the Tomcat at some point in the process.

I often wondered, why did Great Britain created the Tornado ADV alone ? Why was Germany not interested ? it would have been some improvement over the F-4F Phantoms...
 
Archibald said:
I heard Germany also considered the F-15 and during in the prehistory of the Typhoon (1977) their absolute reference was the F-18L (reference in the sense: smallest and lightest twin jet high performance combat aircraft).
So I'm not surprised they considered the Tomcat at some point in the process.

I often wondered, why did Great Britain created the Tornado ADV alone ? Why was Germany not interested ? it would have been some improvement over the F-4F Phantoms...
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A More complex story
Around 1967 several europeans Countries looking for Replacement for there F-104
Canada, West Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium and in certain way Britain
There decision: The Multi-Role Aircraft 75 – MRA-75

in mean time Britain looking for new Bomber, the BAC TSR.2 was canceled, following cancelation of purchase F-111 and finally left with AFVG
the Anglo-French Variable Geometry Program, were the French just left it...
Suddenly The Multi-Role Aircraft 75 program became very interesting for Britain, so they join it while Canada, Belgium and Netherlands left that program.
MAR-75 became with Britain MRCA or Multi-Role-Combat-Aircraft

in 1969 stared the Design phase of MRCA, needed was Multi-Role-Combat with air superiority Fighter/Bomber(also nuclear)/aerial reconnaissance on sea
during that phase Were Two Aircraft plans on same Airframe
The air superiority Fighter (long range interceptor?) with one pilot and The Multi-Role-Combat/Bomber with two men on board
So far i known was West germany pressing for that Solution. first one engine light fighter, later something in size of F-14/F-15
but in 1970s the Partners settle in The Multi-Role-Combat/Bomber with two men on board.
and Luftwaffe start to buy F-4 Phantom as Fighter
 
Archibald said:
I often wondered, why did Great Britain created the Tornado ADV alone ? Why was Germany not interested ? it would have been some improvement over the F-4F Phantoms...
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Archibald, I would think the Luftwaffe of all Air Forces would have appreciated the limited true capabilities of a 'air superiority derivative of the MRCA, after all the Tornado ADV was an interceptor, with very limited manoverability, let alone true dogfighting capability/attributs - something not lost on the Luftwaffe.
At least the F-4F Phantom II had some form of proven manoverability (I'm assuming the F-4F was a lightened and limited derivative of the F-4E, which itself evolved to incorporate improved manoverability, as a consequence of combat experience over Vietnam - minus the medium-range Aim-7 Sparrow capability!


Regards
Pioneer
 
typically putting pressure on the companies that will own the contracts . Though it would be some sight if Tornado was replaced by an attack Tomcat . Low level ingress , airfield attacks . Must be why the Brits would not be "impressed" .
 
Its odd to me that the Luftwaffe would have considered the F-14 Tomcat and yet I've never seen anything about Germany consideration of the F-16 Fighting Falcon, especially in the light of sales to NATO countries, such as Belgium, Denmark, Norway, and the Netherlands, as well as other allied countries in the region that also operate the F-16, such as Poland, Greece, Italy, Portugal, and Romania. The only thing that I can think of is Germany's involvement in Europe's EFA program.
 
Dynoman said:
Its odd to me that the Luftwaffe would have considered the F-14 Tomcat and yet I've never seen anything about Germany consideration of the F-16 Fighting Falcon, especially in the light of sales to NATO countries, such as Belgium, Denmark, Norway, and the Netherlands, as well as other allied countries in the region that also operate the F-16, such as Poland, Greece, Italy, Portugal, and Romania. The only thing that I can think of is Germany's involvement in Europe's EFA program.
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when the f16 was in market, German already or will have tornado, phantom, alpha jet. There is no place for fighting falcon.
 
Interesting point is ...

Although German considered Tomcat, they bought phantom without AIM-7!!(later amraam is added anyway)

and Tornado was made but their speciality is AtG, not AtA combat...

Kinds of Irony
 
Slightly surprised they didn't look at the F-15 in the same timeframe as the F-14. Seems like a more logical fit.

On the F-4F, apparently the initial plan was to buy a single-seat F-4E(F) version. Then they realized that it would be cheaper to just strip the Sparrow systems out of a standard two-seat F-4E, which led to the F-4F. Joe Baugher's history says the F-4F got Sparrow capability back in the early 1980s, whih I am dubious about. I thought they didn't have BVR missile capability at all until the ICE upgrade in the 1990s.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_43.html
 
awesome link. we often don't hear much about Iran-Iraq air to air combat. ACIG had a lot of info, but some people seemed to scoff at the high number of kills made by Iranian F-14s.

I'm still a bit bummed that the type is retired in the USN.
 
A reminder of just how big a 'bird' those Tomcats are.
 
rooster said:
Grey Havoc said:
helmutkohl said:
I'm still a bit bummed that the type is retired in the USN.
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That decision was pure idiocy.
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How many squadrons would still be operational? Where would spare parts come from? I think the tomcat died the day Cheney ordered tools destroyed.
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yeah, there were quite a few defense decisions by that administration I didn't agree with
worse was that i recalled one political blamed Clinton for the end of the F-14s.
 
Ah the Tomcat, was my specialty when I was on CVN-65, I ran the AIMD Hydraulics Shop (1980-1984). Lots of hydraulically actuated subsystems on this bird but loved every minute of it.
 
I recall back in the days when the RAF still had a number of BAC Lightning squadrons they regularly mixed it with everything from Starfighters to F15s and F16s, plus the US aggressor outfit in the UK (Alconbury?).
The Lightnings could pull some moves and surprise its opponents.
As for F14 pilots in the Med, weren't they mainly tasked with splashing Badgers, Blinders et Al.
 
Sundog said:
BAROBA said:
Same old story...
The US got its ass kicked by a backward-ally and now it needs the next-gen fighter to come in and even the score.
Preferably winning by a ratio of 100:1.

The same story has had the US Airforce with F-15's lose to the airforce of India so they needed the F-22.

Just my 2 cents

Rob
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In that fight, between the USAF F-15's and Indian Su's, the F-15's were asked not to use their long range RADAR guided BVR missiles in the engagement. Of course they were going to lose against the Su's IR capability.

What was really funny, is later, when the Indians brought their Su's to Red Flag, there was a video of a mission debrief on YouTube of USAF F-16 pilots talking about how they owned the Indians in the sortie because the Indians didn't really know how to fight their Su's. The video was soon removed from the internet.
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Don't embarrass allies or potential allies or potential customers.
 
Abraham Gubler said:
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
There is nowhere implied here that the pilots they trained with shot down "U.S. Air Force and Israeli F-15s and F-16s" BEFORE training them.
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Ahh I see. So not only is the skill and ability of the USN able to be transferred to the Iranians across space by their co-location but also backwards through time via previous association. It’s not as if fighter pilot chest thumping was a precarious enough argument to be involved in already but now we have “by association, backwards in time” to someone else… It’s one of the many, many ‘philosophical’ arguments made in the Middle East demonstrating how much better ‘they’ are to the Israelis that surprisingly has never actually been proven in any physical test.

But to the issue in hand the Iranians were training to be ‘competent’ in the F-14 weapon system and used it competently against enemy weapon systems that were far less effective. None of this however implies that they are an ‘expert’ operator of their weapon systems which enables weapon systems to be used to their full ability. As is seen in their results which included plenty combat successes though not without significant battlefield failures like no effective operations over water to defeat the extensive Iraqi aerial interdiction of Iranian oil export shipping. One can’t imagine how if the USN were flying those Tomcats based in Iran that the Iraqis would have launched a single successful strike against Iranian shipping.
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This reminds me of a conversation that I had with a US Navy SEAL circa 2000. I had not seen him for a few months and asked how he was doing. He replied that he had been down in some Central American den of thieves teaching local forces how to do riverine patrols and capture narco-trafficers.
When I asked him if he was worried about having to fight well-trained local troops if the USA had to re-invade, he replied "Don't worry. We only taught them 3/4 of what we know. Hah! Hah!"

Bottom line, Top Gun only teaches foreign pilots 3/4 of what they know.
 
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