Engelmann-Boot - Sub/Speedboat Hybrid - Germany WW2

[Michel Van]

I found those picture in on-line magazine "EinesTages zeitgeschichten auf Spiegel.de"

label "Engelmann-Boot" Hybrid of Sub and Speedboat

based on 1938 patent of German dentist from Berlin
build Prototype around 1941 and tested

after Author Richard Lakowski in "U-Boote Geheim". from HEEL-VERLAG (picture also)
the union of German sailors demanded life insurance of 100000 Reichsmark
for each sailor work in "Engelmann-Boot"

got some one more info?

 

[Lauge]

A possible relative of the somewhat spurious "Submersible Tragflügelboot Projekt" described on http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/fastattack/index.html ?

Regards,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Denmark

 

[Michel Van]

thank for link
but on page i found this

Another project based on Wendels initial small fast attack boat design, was a submergible hydrofoil. Equipped with a Schnorchel and periscope, the small vessel should have been able to set itself on the ground of the sea in shallow waters.

The operational pattern behind this idea was the following:
With a target approaching this position, the hydrofoil should surface by blowing its dive tanks and make a fast attack on the enemy ship. After that it should disengage at top speed.

There are not detailed technical data available, but it is almost certain that this project should have had a similar size, armament and performance than the other Wendel fast attack boat designs.

None of these vessels was ever build.

from Picture they build one vessel
and the grafic is wrong, with long Stern
you see cleary that Prototype has long bow!

 

[moin1900]

Hi everybody

Long time ago there was also a good website, but i have not found it ?
http://engelmann.untersee-boote.de/

Länge: 40,84m
Breite: 2,82m ?
Leistung: max. 8200 PS
Speed: max. 50 kn
Crew: 17
Vorgesehene Bewaffnung: 2 x 2cm- Flak auf Turm, 2 x 533mm- Torpedorohre
Many greetings

 

[Michel Van]

translation

En gelman boat VS5

Length 40,84m
wide 2,82m !
engine power 8200 PS max
Speed 50 kn max (partly submerge)
crew 17 sailors
Arms 2x 2cmø Flak gun on tower and 2x 533mmø torpedos

the VS5 was for use during night in enemies sea
Attack fast and dive fast
support U-boot fleet and replace the S-boot complete

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

It appears to be a semi-submersible along the lines of the Confederate David spar-torpedo boats of the US Civil War.

http://www.charlestonillustrated.com/hunley/david.htm#

Jon

 

[Jemiba]

"It appears to be a semi-submersible along the lines of the Confederate David spar-torpedo boats of the US Civil War."

And reading the reports, it even was similar dangerous for the own crew ...
On full power it was said to have a bank angle of about 15°

 

[lastdingo]

There are two pages about the boat in "Geschichte des deutschen U-Bootbaus", Band 1, by Eberhard Rössler - pp. 189f.

Much of what I read here seems to be 'inaccurate'.

The boat was proposed as an alternative to submarines if the efforts to immunize teh subs under water would fail.
It was meant to attack at the surface at night - conventional subs proved to be capable in this even despite their slow speed - and would survive due to being a small target and very small.

It was a project of 1937-1941 mostly, and was recognized as needing too many bucks for the bang.

Torque was a big problem, and the test boat was only 250 tons.
Production ships would have been 600 ton ships, probably with armored superstructures.


question: I could scan two pages (German language) and upload to imageshack, would that be OK?
Some forums are hyper-sensitive about this.

It was not meant to dive regularly, but to sink itself to the sea bottom for hiding - no underwater movement.

 

[Justo Miranda]

A possible relative of the somewhat spurious "Submersible Tragflügelboot Projekt" described on http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/fastattack/index.html ?

Regards,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Denmark

Please see scale drawings at https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/dcns-smx-25-ssgt-concept.11460/post-109092

 

[Grey Havoc]

Please see scale drawings at https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/dcns-smx-25-ssgt-concept.11460/post-109092

Link needs updating.

Link updated

 

[Grey Havoc]

Please see scale drawings at https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/dcns-smx-25-ssgt-concept.11460/post-109092

Link needs updating.

Link updated

Thanks.

 

[1946]

Engleman Boot VS-5 patent drawings

 

[1946]

various photos of the VS-5 prototype

 

[riggerrob]

This hull configuration reminds me of Small Waterline Twin Hulled (SWATH) catamarans in that it will dive through the larger waves to minimize pitching in heavy seas. The smoother ride would help crews aim torpedoes more accurately.

On a more humorous note, it also reminds us of 1950s vintage Saint Lawrence class destroyers built for the Royal Canadian navy. Their forecastles were rounded to ease spraying off NBC contaminants. Some wag suggested that the streamlined bow was to allow them to stalk Soviet submarines at periscope depth.
Hah!
Hah!

 

[TomS]

This hull configuration reminds me of Small Waterline Twin Hulled (SWATH) catamarans in that it will dive through the larger waves to minimize pitching in heavy seas. The smoother ride would help crews aim torpedoes more accurately.

There's a version called SWASH (small waterplane single hull) that usually has some stabilizing side hulls. Without those side hulls, I'd expect it to roll a lot. Body of rotation subs are notoriously unpleasant on the surface, and this reminds me a lot of that shape.

 

[1946]

There's a version called SWASH (small waterplane single hull) that usually has some stabilizing side hulls. Without those side hulls, I'd expect it to roll a lot. Body of rotation subs are notoriously unpleasant on the surface, and this reminds me a lot of that shape.

View attachment 707992

similar to catamaran except the addition of motor in center

 

[TomS]

similar to catamaran except the addition of motor in center

Essentially all of the buoyancy in a SWASH comes from the submerged center hull, which makes it behave rather differently. It's more like a trimaran or stabilized very slender monohull.

 

[Wurger]

Fortunatelly the Bundesarchiv/Militärarchiv digitised one of my request and here comes Engelmann`s Untersee-Schnellboot(U-S-Boot), with no less than 570 tons. The project dates from 1942, showing a later iteration of the basic concept. Almost 10 meters longer, broader, with a cylindrical hull, retractable hull stabilisers and tail fixed ones would make it a more stable platform, and with better manoeuverability too, with a full rudder. Fielding two torpedo tubes, it had capacity to store more (mind the torpedo chute). CG most have been much changed, the powerplant moved backwards. The glazed control bridge/tower reminds me of Feliz Wankel`s two-hull "gleitboot". The observation device other than the periscopes, particularly what seems to be a telescopic crow`s nest, is most curious.

 

[Cthell]

Fortunatelly the Bundesarchiv/Militärarchiv digitised one of my request and here comes Engelmann`s Untersee-Schnellboot(U-S-Boot), with no less than 570 tons. The project dates from 1942, showing a later iteration of the basic concept. Almost 10 meters longer, broader, with a cylindrical hull, retractable hull stabilisers and tail fixed ones would make it a more stable platform, and with better manoeuverability too, with a full rudder. Fielding two torpedo tubes, it had capacity to store more (mind the torpedo chute). CG most have been much changed, the powerplant moved backwards. The glazed control bridge/tower reminds me of Feliz Wankel`s two-hull "gleitboot". The observation device other than the periscopes, particularly what seems to be a telescopic crow`s nest, is most curious.

only 2 torpedo tubes? It looks like a 2x2 array, with two tubes visible in both the side and top view.

 

[Wurger]

only 2 torpedo tubes? It looks like a 2x2 array, with two tubes visible in both the side and top view.

You are right, a 2x2 array!

 

[Jemiba]

The drawing clearly says „Only two torpedo tubes (Lack of space)“
Maybe a diagonal arrangement of two tubes ?

 

[Raketyr]

Fortunatelly the Bundesarchiv/Militärarchiv digitised one of my request and here comes Engelmann`s Untersee-Schnellboot(U-S-Boot), with no less than 570 tons. The project dates from 1942, showing a later iteration of the basic concept. Almost 10 meters longer, broader, with a cylindrical hull, retractable hull stabilisers and tail fixed ones would make it a more stable platform, and with better manoeuverability too, with a full rudder. Fielding two torpedo tubes, it had capacity to store more (mind the torpedo chute). CG most have been much changed, the powerplant moved backwards. The glazed control bridge/tower reminds me of Feliz Wankel`s two-hull "gleitboot". The observation device other than the periscopes, particularly what seems to be a telescopic crow`s nest, is most curious.

Very interesting project!
It's great that you search for unknown vessel projects and then share them here (-;
I thought Engelmann's VS 5 was a dead end that didn't develop further...
So for me it's an amazing discovery!
Do you also have more information about the mentioned "gleitboot" of Felix Wankel?
Thank you very much.

 

[Jemiba]

Wurger may be reffering to this design (rather what we would call a "concept" today), shown in
"Felix Wankel - Leben und Werk in Bildern" by Sascha Becker, Fried Meysen, Kurt Möser and Marcus Popplow.

 

[Wurger]

Wurger may be reffering to this design (rather what we would call a "concept" today), shown in
"Felix Wankel - Leben und Werk in Bildern" by Sascha Becker, Fried Meysen, Kurt Möser and Marcus Popplow.

View attachment 740335

That's the one, Jens. Thanks!