Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II

[greedo]

Your flying robot has no mother at home waiting for him and don't expect a search&rescue party. It doesn't even need training. It has a mark and serial number with known operating procedures and none personalized view on things. It is then far less expensive to bring to the battle & can die cheaply while performing his role with excellence. .

If flying robot is substantially less effective than a manned asset - while operator's mother will get her child back, mothers of infantrymen will weep. Many more of them at that.
So it's important to strike balance. Preferably the balance shall be flexible enough so as to not just work against opponents that can't shoot back.
And here aircraft relying on 1980s solutions(low&fast) are still doing vastly better than loitering drones with an insufficient standoff - thus at least for now there is good merit in actually doing the reverse - unmanned asset doing the stand off observation&target recognition from the altitude, manned asset going in.

Even if it can do only a fraction of what an A-10 pilot can do him[her]self, it is there to stay (and improves). There is no conflict b/w the two. A robot is a tool just like any kitchen appliance and the future is for them to be an extension of the aircraft systems (MUM-T).

Totally agree.

"Painless war" is an oxymoron. When all of the superior robots are rendered useless through cyber or kinetic operations are you going to surrender? Do any of you have data on how many aircraft sorties have been flown vice number of aircraft lost? Do any of you have the number of reported aircraft lost to air defense missiles vice how many missiles have been launched? How many UAV have been lost versus manned platforms by sortie ratio? YouTube video and Twitter are not sound bases for accurate observation and analysis.
The Russians started the war using massed helicopter formations in daylight with very little in the way of aircraft survivability equipment. Tactics that had not changed at all since the Soviet days. Through Darwinian selection they have modified their tactics and are using more western-like tactics of stand-off with long range missiles (LMUR/Izd.305?) and operating closer only at night. The Ukrainian helicopters flew at night in small groups (through the very same Russian Integrated Air Defense that is going to sweep the sky) on a number of occasions. Both are now using their helicopters to conduct flying artillery barrage attacks from behind the front line trace. MANPADS are not everywhere and they don't see well at night, even with night visions devices. Nor do they last long in enemy territory. Most regular soldiers prefer to be unnoticed behind enemy lines.

Now before everyone gets excited with my diatribe, the US Army FVL program is looking at exactly what you are discussing. The Air Launched Effects (ALE) is launched outside of the WEZ (Weapons Effects Zone) to do the very reconnaissance that used to be done by manned platforms. The manned platform acts as the decision point for the reconnaissance conducted by the attritable unmanned air vehicle. The US Army is also acquiring very long range missiles for sniping their nemesis from behind friendly lines.

Why am I blathering about rotorcraft, because USAF is not going to do CAS early in any fight. In fact I seriously doubt that the US Army field commanders expect any CAS at all. So they have their own. Did you know that a helicopter at 50ft AGL can target a radar 10 miles away without being detected (its geometry folks).

In conclusion: The CAS mission will be conducted in close proximity to ground forces by people in close proximity to the ground forces and not to somebody in a box somewhere far away. Occasionally having an F-35 drop a JDAM on a bridge or building will be great but how many F-35 do you need to kill a battalion of tanks? Keeping a couple of squadrons of A-10 in the Air National Guard or Air Force Reserve in case we decide to be stupid enough to do "small wars" again might be prudent.

Speaking of the Russian/Ukrainian helicopter usage, how useful does it seem for them to be launching unguided missiles in a ballistic attack? I know the Soviets used to view all aircraft as an extension of artillery, but using a helicopter as a rich man's MLRS seems inefficient.

 

[Jeb]

That helicopter attack "tactic" to me seems like "Sergey, just shoot in their direction and let's get out of here...I don't want to eat a Strela like Nikolai did."

 

[yasotay]

Speaking of the Russian/Ukrainian helicopter usage, how useful does it seem for them to be launching unguided missiles in a ballistic attack? I know the Soviets used to view all aircraft as an extension of artillery, but using a helicopter as a rich man's MLRS seems inefficient.

Efficiency is not the metric. Effectiveness is. This method is very effective at affecting morale. If a great number of ten pounds of high explosive start going off around you with no warning it affects your morale. If the town you are in is repeatedly visited by random volumes of explosion and causes you not to sleep, it affects your morale. Volume of fire might get you lucky and have one of them land on a fuel truck or ammo truck. It even has a name: H&I fires (Harassment and Interdiction). Back before we got "efficient" it was a normal planning consideration that artillerymen knew well. So instead of using artillery shells that are becoming increasingly less abundant for this mission and the risk of counterbattery fires for decreasing number of artillery systems, you use aircraft to do the H&I fires as they don't take as long as artillery to move. With the technique the aircraft never, or minimally travel into the Weapons Effect Zone of the enemy air defenses.
Both sides have been through the Darwinian crucible with their helicopters. More night flights, more ATGM and precision missiles from behind the cover of friendly forces are occurring. MEDEVAC and battlefield circulation are also still being done.

 

[Forest Green]

As a point of reference, the Saudis are using their F-15s for cruise missile defense with some regularity (or at least they were last year). They were burning through their AMRAAM inventory to do it. I'm pretty sure they would use guns (or even Sidewinder) instead if they thought it would work, but it doesn't. And that's from a supersonic interceptor that can generate favorable intercept geometry. Plus, intercepts happening mostly over empty desert.

If you were really good you could pull alongside and tip it over with your wing. That used to work with V-1s anyway.

 

[TomS]

As a point of reference, the Saudis are using their F-15s for cruise missile defense with some regularity (or at least they were last year). They were burning through their AMRAAM inventory to do it. I'm pretty sure they would use guns (or even Sidewinder) instead if they thought it would work, but it doesn't. And that's from a supersonic interceptor that can generate favorable intercept geometry. Plus, intercepts happening mostly over empty desert.

If you were really good you could pull alongside and tip it over with your wing. That used to work with V-1s anyway.

And yet, they're not doing that. Because that technique was dangerous in 1945 and only really worked because the V-1 had gyros that were easy to topple. Shooting was always the preferred way to kill V-1s. And missiles are vastly preferred today, even against the rather simple drones/cruise missiles the Huthis are using.

Back to the A-10. Land-attack Kalibr's speed is reportedly around Mach 0.8 (~530 knots). Vne for the A-10 is 450 knots. How does this wing tipping thing work when you can't catch your target in a tail chase?

 

[publiusr]

The A-10's bullets are faster though. And are more effective than F-15 rounds-keep to the countryside. A smart chopper might co-ordinate with dumber A-10s. These missiles are doing great damage. Starlink might allow triangulation with GIS 'arrestor code' to interupt fire near housing?

 

[Forest Green]

And yet, they're not doing that. Because that technique was dangerous in 1945 and only really worked because the V-1 had gyros that were easy to topple. Shooting was always the preferred way to kill V-1s. And missiles are vastly preferred today, even against the rather simple drones/cruise missiles the Huthis are using.

Back to the A-10. Land-attack Kalibr's speed is reportedly around Mach 0.8 (~530 knots). Vne for the A-10 is 450 knots. How does this wing tipping thing work when you can't catch your target in a tail chase?

You need a faster plane obviously, or a tipper drone. A Gepard is probably a better solution though.

 

[publiusr]

Bullets are cheaper than missiles. An all gun drone?

 

[TomS]

The A-10's bullets are faster though. And are more effective than F-15 rounds-keep to the countryside. A smart chopper might co-ordinate with dumber A-10s. These missiles are doing great damage. Starlink might allow triangulation with GIS 'arrestor code' to interupt fire near housing?

GAU-8 rounds are actually a bit slower than the M61 rounds. That both are faster than the planes that fire them is irrelevant to the geometry of intercept. You have to get into a favorable firing position first, and you can't do that in a plane that's slower than the target except by accident or in a very fleeting window.

The right solution here is ground-based air defense systems. You know, stuff like NASAMS and IRIS-T SL, both of which are going to Ukraine and are better at defending vs cruise missiles than untested lash-ups of helicopters, slow airplanes, and short-range guns.

Bullets are cheaper than missiles. An all gun drone?

Cheaper per shot? Sure. Cheaper per kill? Quite likely not. You have to think about the probabilities here. Lots of cheap gun shots don't matter if the individual Pk is so low that they have a substantial chance of not making the kill at all.

 

[Forest Green]

Drones tend to be light, the recoil effects would be horrific for a decent calibre gun.

GAU-8 rounds are actually a bit slower than the M61 rounds. That both are faster than the planes that fire them is irrelevant to the geometry of intercept. You have to get into a favorable firing position first, and you can't do that in a plane that's slower than the target except by accident or in a very fleeting window.

I also keep mentioning that the A-10 has no radar or even IRST, so how on Earth does it even find a cruise missile?

 

[kaiserd]

Drones tend to be light, the recoil effects would be horrific for a decent calibre gun.

GAU-8 rounds are actually a bit slower than the M61 rounds. That both are faster than the planes that fire them is irrelevant to the geometry of intercept. You have to get into a favorable firing position first, and you can't do that in a plane that's slower than the target except by accident or in a very fleeting window.

I also keep mentioning that the A-10 has no radar or even IRST, so how on Earth does it even find a cruise missile?

It doesn’t.
Discussions re: cruise missile defence have absolutely nothing to do with the A-10 apart from helping to evidence that fighters like the F-16 are far more flexible and can carry out far more roles.

 

[Forest Green]

Discussions re: cruise missile defence have absolutely nothing to do with the A-10 apart from helping to evidence that fighters like the F-16 are far more flexible and can carry out far more roles.

Can they carry AGM-84H SLAM-ERs or do they need F-18s for that? That would be a nice to have weapon and MTCR-compliant.

 

[TomS]

Discussions re: cruise missile defence have absolutely nothing to do with the A-10 apart from helping to evidence that fighters like the F-16 are far more flexible and can carry out far more roles.

Can they carry AGM-84H SLAM-ERs?

F-16 can (cleared for Turkey about a decade ago). I don't think any variant of Harpoon was ever cleared on the A-10, though certainly it was proposed.

 

[Forest Green]

F-16 can (cleared for Turkey about a decade ago). I don't think any variant of Harpoon was ever cleared on the A-10, though certainly it was proposed.

It would certainly put the cat among the pigeons. Take out some key bridges, put ships under greater risk.

 

[TomS]

F-16 can (cleared for Turkey about a decade ago). I don't think any variant of Harpoon was ever cleared on the A-10, though certainly it was proposed.

It would certainly put the cat among the pigeons. Take out some key bridges, put ships under greater risk.

SLAM-ER is scary for the shooter, though. You have to stooge around within LOS of the missile/target to use its man-in-the loop targeting capability. SLAM-ER is described as "Standoff Outside of Area Defense" but do we really think it outranges interlocking S-300/400 batteries?

 

[Forest Green]

SLAM-ER is scary for the shooter, though. You have to stooge around within LOS of the missile/target to use its man-in-the loop targeting capability. SLAM-ER is described as "Standoff Outside of Area Defense" but do we really think it outranges interlocking S-300/400 batteries?

Huh? It has GPS and DSMAC and a range of 270km. It's basically a short range cruise missile with an 800lb warhead. Command guidance is only if it needs to be re-directed or updated. Remote control is optionally provided but it is not necessary.

AGM-84H/K SLAM-ER - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TomS]

SLAM-ER is scary for the shooter, though. You have to stooge around within LOS of the missile/target to use its man-in-the loop targeting capability. SLAM-ER is described as "Standoff Outside of Area Defense" but do we really think it outranges interlocking S-300/400 batteries?

Huh? It has GPS and DSMAC and a range of 270km. It's basically a short range cruise missile with an 800lb warhead. Command guidance is only if it needs to be re-directed or updated. Remote control is optionally provided but it is not necessary.

AGM-84H/K SLAM-ER - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think Wiki confuses a few things, especially by linking ATA with DSMAC and TERCOM -- they are not the same thing at all. But I guess the 2002 ATA update does let SLAM-ER engage without man-in-the-loop.

But I don't see how it's relevant in the context of the A-10, which does not operate SLAM-ER and never has.

 

[isayyo2]

New post from the War Zone on the ongoing A-10 modernization, good updates on the SBD and high resolution displays integration

A-10 Warthog's Tusks Are Being Sharpened For A High-End Fight

Inside Nellis Week: New weapons, fuel tanks, displays, and more are being added to the A-10 to make it a key player in a high-end conflict.

www.thedrive.com

Maj. Adkison says the MALD plan has “a lot of buy-in” from the USAF community and that it is hoped it will enter flight testing in the near future.

A four-ship of A-10s would be able to carry an eye-watering 64 SDBs! Maj. Adkison says SDB is expected to be rolled out to the fleet in 2023.

...a number of other initiatives including full Link 16 datalink integration rather than via the SADL, or Situational Awareness Data Link, as well as new ARC-210 Gen 6 radios and jam-resistant GPS.

The Conversion Fuel Tank (CFT) is a modification of the A-10’s existing large ferry fuel tank that has fewer restrictions including a higher g-loading, which means it can be carried on combat missions. This will increase loiter time and reduce air refueling needs as well as increase the A-10’s already robust austere capability. In addition, the High Resolution Display System (HRDS) will provide the A-10 with a modern glass cockpit. The jet’s current multifunction displays limit the effectiveness of the Litening targeting pod in terms of image size and pixel count. HRDS will present the pilot with a far larger image from the pod.

 

[TomcatViP]

The incredible story of how Ukraine is readying itself for the eventuality of gaining access to the A-10:

Exclusive: Ukraine’s Secret Effort to Train for U.S. Jets

The program shows how Ukrainians are using invention, social media and disregard for protocol against Russia.

time.com

 

[Grey Havoc]

Air Force says KC-46 can refuel planes around the world — except one

“I have 100% confidence in [the Pegasus’] ability,” AMC head Gen. Mike Minihan said.

www.defensenews.com

However, AMC clarified later the KC-46 still cannot refuel the A-10 Warthog due to a problem with the stiffness of its refueling boom and won’t be able to until the issue is fixed. The Air Force in 2019 awarded Boeing a contract worth up to $55.5 million to redesign the boom; that effort is still in the works.

 

[aonestudio]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxy6FFD9vM4

U.S. Air Force A-10 Thunderbolt II ground attack aircraft fire GAU-8 Avenger cannons and drop cluster bombs on targets at the Nevada Test and Training Range (NTTR). The 422 Test and Evaluation Squadron (TES) conducted testing of two different Cluster Bomb Units (CBU), CBU-87 and CBU-103, on September 14, 2022 to evaluate bomblet dispersion, pattern, and effectiveness against armored targets.

Film Credits: U.S. Air Force Video by Airman First Class Trevor Bell, Nellis AFB Public Affairs

 

[aonestudio]

A-10 Warthogs to brush up on maritime combat in Pacific deployment

The Air Force is reimagining the role of the A-10C attack plane, a counterterrorism mainstay, for a new kind of fight.

www.c4isrnet.com

 

[isayyo2]

A-10 Warthogs to brush up on maritime combat in Pacific deployment

The Air Force is reimagining the role of the A-10C attack plane, a counterterrorism mainstay, for a new kind of fight.

www.c4isrnet.com

Hopefully they get that SAR pod sooner than later

 

[quellish]

A-10 Warthogs to brush up on maritime combat in Pacific deployment

The Air Force is reimagining the role of the A-10C attack plane, a counterterrorism mainstay, for a new kind of fight.

www.c4isrnet.com

Hopefully they get that SAR pod sooner than later

The MTSI Rapid Aerial Extraction System (RAES) pod or something else?

 

[isayyo2]

The MTSI Rapid Aerial Extraction System (RAES) pod or something else?

Ah my bad, I meant Synthetic Aperture Radar not Search and Rescue

The current plan is to adopt a radar pod for the A-10C like the ASQ-236; it'd be a phenomenal help when dealing with maritime clutter.

 

[Forest Green]

Important for more than maritime ops too.

 

[TomS]

The MTSI Rapid Aerial Extraction System (RAES) pod or something else?

Ah my bad, I meant Synthetic Aperture Radar not Search and Rescue

The current plan is to adopt a radar pod for the A-10C like the ASQ-236; it'd be a phenomenal help when dealing with maritime clutter.

The current (2019) rumor. It's never been confirmed that they are getting any radar pod, much less ASQ-236.

The Air Force's A-10 Warthogs are getting a whole bunch of upgrades, including a new kind of bomb

The A-10's cockpit will be outfitted with new sensors and its recently replaced wings will carry a new kind of bomb.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[isayyo2]

The current (2019) rumor. It's never been confirmed that they are getting any radar pod, much less ASQ-236.

It seems physically possible, but not fiscally. The new cockpit upgrades and Link 16 are good enough and the most recent Warzone article from August doesn’t mention the radar pod unfortunately

 

[Grey Havoc]

U.S. Air Force wants to use A-10 Thunderbolt II attack aircraft along with B-1B Lancer supersonic bombers to destroy enemy air defense systems

The U.S. Air Force began using B-1B Lancer supersonic bombers paired with A-10 Thunderbolt II attack aircraft as part of an exercise on the island of Guam.

gagadget.com

 

[TomcatViP]

Historic point:

Congress would approve A-10 retirements, more F-35s in defense bill

For years, Congress has thwarted the Air Force's attempts to retire the iconic A-10 Warthog, but that is about to change.

www.defensenews.com

 

[FighterJock]

Historic point:

Congress would approve A-10 retirements, more F-35s in defense bill

For years, Congress has thwarted the Air Force's attempts to retire the iconic A-10 Warthog, but that is about to change.

www.defensenews.com

Here we go again! But would they succeed? Only time will tell.

 

[Foo Fighter]

With the replacement of wings and structural upgrades, what are the potential for sales to 'friendly' nations? The airframes would seem to have a decent lifespan to come.

 

[zjz]

A-10 Thunderbolt II (Warthog) SYSTEMS ENGINEERING CASE STUDY

https://www.afit.edu/docs/A-10%20SE%20Case%20Study.pdf

 

[Grey Havoc]

With the replacement of wings and structural upgrades, what are the potential for sales to 'friendly' nations? The airframes would seem to have a decent lifespan to come.

Likely a non-starter due to various vested interests, unfortunately.

 

[kaiserd]

With the replacement of wings and structural upgrades, what are the potential for sales to 'friendly' nations? The airframes would seem to have a decent lifespan to come.

Likely a non-starter due to various vested interests, unfortunately.

The primary “vested interests” being the various US allies that just don’t want the A-10 (and would far rather have alternatives like the F-16 and the F-35).

 

[aonestudio]

GBU-39 19 and 21 April 2023

16 GBU-39 Small Diameter Bombs hang from the right wing of an A-10 Thunderbolt II, for a testing mission, at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, April 20, 2023. This is the first time the 422nd Test and Evaluation Squadron has carried and employed all four bomb racks of GBU-39s on a single jet. (U.S...

www.dvidshub.net

A-10 Warthog To Soon Carry 16 Small Diameter Bombs In Combat

The A-10 Warthog will be able to employ 16 GBU-39 Small Diameter Bombs, each against a separate target, on a single sortie.

www.thedrive.com

 

[TomcatViP]

The Air Force 422nd Test and Evaluation Squadron at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, recently tested modified A-10s with 16 of the bombs.

Weapon pylons on the A-10 that previously carried one 500-pound bomb can now carry four Small Diameter Bombs, according to Air Force officials. The 250-pound, satellite-guided SDB can glide much farther than the heavier 500-pound weapons. An A-10 dropped a live Small Diameter Bomb for the first time during a February test.

And there are plans to push the loadout to 24, Grynkewich said.

In addition to combat missions in Syria and Iraq, Air Forces Central plans to use the A-10 in exercises with partners in the region.

Grynkewich’s command is also responding to a call from CENTCOM’s Kurilla to be more innovative. Air Forces Central aims to experiment with the A-10’s ability to shoot down enemy drones. Since the A-10 lacks a radar, officials plan to use a network of U.S. and allied radars to guide the attack jets to their uncrewed targets. The Warthog could then use its infrared targeting pod to engage a drone with heat-seeking missiles or laser-guided rockets, Grynkewich said.

“We're in the experimentation phase, but conceptually, we think there's a fair amount of promise,” he said. “The A-10 is going to be flying at a slower speed, which has a lot of advantage for when you're going against one of these [drones]. We think that just that added capacity might provide us something really exciting in the space.”

A-10s Return to Middle East with a New Mission, and a New Weapon

Tensions with Iran, Russia have CENTCOM calling upon the venerable Warthog once again.

www.defenseone.com

 

[Forest Green]

 

[FighterJock]

That is a lot of Small Diameter Bombs hung on to the A-10 Forest Green, very impressive if I may say so myself.

 

[TomcatViP]

What the US should do with its A-10 Thunderbolt

Opinions: Let's kill two birds with one stone.

www.defensenews.com

IMOHO, A-10 should switch to Naval warfare. Just have them protect littoral waters all across the Pacific. They are cheap, rugged, have loiter capability and can carry everything needed.