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A-X all over again - USAF pushes for A-10 replacement

RavenOne

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http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/2016/04/07/air-force-moving-forward--10-replacement/82746220/

WASHINGTON — The Air Force is moving forward with a key step in developing a dedicated close-air support plane to replace the A-10 Warthog, a top general said Thursday.

“My requirements guys are in the process of building a draft requirements document for a follow-on CAS airplane,” Lt. Gen. Mike Holmes, the deputy chief of staff for strategic plans and requirements, said. “It’s interesting work that at some point we’ll be able to talk with you a little bit more.”

Defining the requirement is the first concrete step toward developing potentially developing a replacement A-10 for the close-air support mission, often dubbed A-X. The Air Force has been studying the idea of a procuring single-role A-X for at least a year now, hosting a joint-service summit in March, 2015, to work out options for the close-air support, or CAS, mission.
 

Steve Pace

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Too bad they just can't build more A-10s with updated avionics and propulsive system. -SP
 

sferrin

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Steve Pace said:
Too bad they just can't built more A-10s with updated avionics and propulsive system. -SP
Could we even build that gun in the US if we wanted more?
 

overscan

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sferrin said:
Steve Pace said:
Too bad they just can't built more A-10s with updated avionics and propulsive system. -SP
Could we even build that gun in the US if we wanted more?
There's a guy on Aliexpress can do a good deal...
 

sferrin

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PaulMM (Overscan) said:
sferrin said:
Steve Pace said:
Too bad they just can't built more A-10s with updated avionics and propulsive system. -SP
Could we even build that gun in the US if we wanted more?
There's a guy on Aliexpress can do a good deal...
I could swear I read somewhere that the facility that use to make gatling guns in the US is long gone; that even "new" miniguns are just refurbed old stock made decades ago.
 

Mark Nankivil

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If that's so, it is truly sad....

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

sferrin

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Mark Nankivil said:
If that's so, it is truly sad....

Enjoy the Day! Mark
The history of the classic "minigun" is a depressing read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minigun

(Yeah, I know, it's Wiki, but it's a decent summation.)
 

litzj

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How about single seat version of korea's T-50 when it is selected as T-X aircraft?

Although it is not specialist of CAS, it could be optimized to CAS aircraft with single seat modification.
 

litzj

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How about single seat version of korea's T-50 when it is selected as T-X aircraft?

Although it is not specialist of CAS, it could be optimized to CAS aircraft with single seat modification.
 

yasotay

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sferrin said:
Mark Nankivil said:
If that's so, it is truly sad....

Enjoy the Day! Mark
The history of the classic "minigun" is a depressing read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minigun

(Yeah, I know, it's Wiki, but it's a decent summation.)
Dillon is manufacturing new mini-guns.

As for A-X, I'd vote for the ARES myself.
 

sferrin

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yasotay said:
sferrin said:
Mark Nankivil said:
If that's so, it is truly sad....

Enjoy the Day! Mark
The history of the classic "minigun" is a depressing read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minigun

(Yeah, I know, it's Wiki, but it's a decent summation.)
Dillon is manufacturing new mini-guns.

As for A-X, I'd vote for the ARES myself.
Never understood the fascination with ARES. Seems like more of a lightweight COIN aircraft than a CAS/BAI like the A-10 was meant to be. As for the gun, I was talking about gatling guns in general and the GAU-8 specifically. Maybe whoever produces the Goalkeeper CIWS still builds them but I'm pretty sure nobody in the US is anymore.
 

TomS

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GD-OTS lists goalkeeper as a joint effort withThales Nederland. As far as I Know, the actual guns are still supplied from the US.

Of course, it's very unlikely that a clean sheet CAS design developed today would carry a 30mm Gatling. A 25mm would offer more than enough terminal effect -- actual tanks can be dealt with in many other ways.
 

Arian

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sferrin said:
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
sferrin said:
Steve Pace said:
Too bad they just can't built more A-10s with updated avionics and propulsive system. -SP
Could we even build that gun in the US if we wanted more?
There's a guy on Aliexpress can do a good deal...
I could swear I read somewhere that the facility that use to make gatling guns in the US is long gone; that even "new" miniguns are just refurbed old stock made decades ago.
http://www.gd-ots.com/productsbycategory.html
https://www.dillonaero.com/content/p/9/pid/1/catid/1/Standard_M134D
 

Moose

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sferrin said:
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
sferrin said:
Steve Pace said:
Too bad they just can't built more A-10s with updated avionics and propulsive system. -SP
Could we even build that gun in the US if we wanted more?
There's a guy on Aliexpress can do a good deal...
I could swear I read somewhere that the facility that use to make gatling guns in the US is long gone; that even "new" miniguns are just refurbed old stock made decades ago.
General Dynamics would like a few words with you.
 

Michel Van

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Let face it the A-10 is best attack aircraft ever build.
A unique opportunity were Military, Politician and Engineers work together to create ultimate tank hunter

The A-10 Thunderbolt II is design for robust, reliability, Durability under extrem conditions
it got triple control systems, The cockpit is a Titan shell
It's designed to be refueled, rearmed, serviced and repaired with minimal equipment on Field

And what they wanted to replace it ? F-35, now the F-35 became zillion dollar project that's behind how many years ?
and now new A-X project, this time with meddling Politician in the game...

Scaled Composites ARES is nice concept for lightweight COIN aircraft, disposal after one mission.
or you beliefe it survive a mission that A-10 venture ?

The best thing they can do for moment is go to Northrop-Grumman (rights owner of Fairchild Republic)
and order New A-10, yes order new ones ! why change a success story ?
 

Mark S.

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I don't know if we can design the gun but it wouldn't be too difficult to get it built here in the U.S. Plenty of firms have the technical know-how especially in the Midwest.
 

sferrin

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Moose said:
sferrin said:
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
sferrin said:
Steve Pace said:
Too bad they just can't built more A-10s with updated avionics and propulsive system. -SP
Could we even build that gun in the US if we wanted more?
There's a guy on Aliexpress can do a good deal...
I could swear I read somewhere that the facility that use to make gatling guns in the US is long gone; that even "new" miniguns are just refurbed old stock made decades ago.
General Dynamics would like a few words with you.
If they've acquired the tooling, and still have the know-how, for the GAU-8 I would be delighted to be wrong. :)
 

sferrin

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Mark S. said:
I don't know if we can design the gun but it wouldn't be too difficult to get it built here in the U.S. Plenty of firms have the technical know-how especially in the Midwest.
Ugh. An AR is not a 30mm Gatling gun. Lots of people make ultra-lights and hang-gliders too but none of them are going to be kicking out a fighter plane anytime soon.
 

Steve Pace

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Mark S. said:
I don't know if we can design the gun but it wouldn't be too difficult to get it built here in the U.S. Plenty of firms have the technical know-how especially in the Midwest.
Where's Mr. Gatling when you need him? -SP
 

TomS

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sferrin said:
Moose said:
General Dynamics would like a few words with you.
If they've acquired the tooling, and still have the know-how, for the GAU-8 I would be delighted to be wrong. :)
General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems bought (by way of Lockheed Martin) the GE activity that originally developed the GAU-8. GD-OTS is is actively supporting GAU-8 with spares. Given that new GAU-8s are still being produced for Goalkeeper installations for the ROKN, it seems that new guns are being made, and GD-OTS is the only company that can do that.


http://www.usaopps.com/government_bids/detail/ADP14012808290000301.htm


The Naval Surface Warfare Center, Dahlgren Division intends to acquire continued research, development, analysis, testing documentation, prototype fabrication, pre-production, and production of Gatling Gun weapon systems hardware and associated gun control systems software. The effort will be fulfilled through other than full and open competition with General Dynamics - Ordnance and Tactical Systems (GD-OTS), Williston Technology Center, 326 IBM Road, Building 862, Williston, VT 05494. This requirement encompasses several different variants of this multi-barrel gun (to include the 25mm GAU-12 and GAU-22; 30mm GAU-8; .50cal GAU-19/A and 19/B; and the 20mm M61 and 3 barrel variant M197). GD-OTS is the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) for these guns and has been in continuous production for these guns for almost 70 years. No other company can produce these guns new. GD-OTS is the Current Design Authority (CDA) for the 25mm GAU-12 and GAU-22; 30mm GAU-8; and .50 cal GAU-19/A and 19/B. The entire Technical Data Packages (TDPs) for the .50 cal GAU-19 gun is GD-OTS Proprietary and portions of the TDPs for the 25mm GAU-12/GAU-22 and 30mm GAU-8 guns are GD-OTS proprietary. GD-OTS has also developed the ammunition handling systems that support integrating these multi-barrel weapons in every frontline aircraft for the US Government.
 

elmayerle

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sferrin said:
Mark Nankivil said:
If that's so, it is truly sad....

Enjoy the Day! Mark
The history of the classic "minigun" is a depressing read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minigun

(Yeah, I know, it's Wiki, but it's a decent summation.)
There was a fascinating article on the development of the mini-gun in Small Arms Review about a year ago. After the prototype was developed by experimental engineering, production development and design was taken over by production engineering, with no input from the group that developed the prototype. Ultimately, they had to bring back the original engineer and design to develop an alternate design, to that of production engineering, that would work.
 

sferrin

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elmayerle said:
sferrin said:
Mark Nankivil said:
If that's so, it is truly sad....

Enjoy the Day! Mark
The history of the classic "minigun" is a depressing read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minigun

(Yeah, I know, it's Wiki, but it's a decent summation.)
There was a fascinating article on the development of the mini-gun in Small Arms Review about a year ago. After the prototype was developed by experimental engineering, production development and design was taken over by production engineering, with no input from the group that developed the prototype. Ultimately, they had to bring back the original engineer and design to develop an alternate design, to that of production engineering, that would work.
I still wish they'd have found a use for the micro-gun ;D in 5.56mm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM214_Microgun
 

sferrin

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TomS said:
sferrin said:
Moose said:
General Dynamics would like a few words with you.
If they've acquired the tooling, and still have the know-how, for the GAU-8 I would be delighted to be wrong. :)
General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems bought (by way of Lockheed Martin) the GE activity that originally developed the GAU-8. GD-OTS is is actively supporting GAU-8 with spares. Given that new GAU-8s are still being produced for Goalkeeper installations for the ROKN, it seems that new guns are being made, and GD-OTS is the only company that can do that.


http://www.usaopps.com/government_bids/detail/ADP14012808290000301.htm


The Naval Surface Warfare Center, Dahlgren Division intends to acquire continued research, development, analysis, testing documentation, prototype fabrication, pre-production, and production of Gatling Gun weapon systems hardware and associated gun control systems software. The effort will be fulfilled through other than full and open competition with General Dynamics - Ordnance and Tactical Systems (GD-OTS), Williston Technology Center, 326 IBM Road, Building 862, Williston, VT 05494. This requirement encompasses several different variants of this multi-barrel gun (to include the 25mm GAU-12 and GAU-22; 30mm GAU-8; .50cal GAU-19/A and 19/B; and the 20mm M61 and 3 barrel variant M197). GD-OTS is the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) for these guns and has been in continuous production for these guns for almost 70 years. No other company can produce these guns new. GD-OTS is the Current Design Authority (CDA) for the 25mm GAU-12 and GAU-22; 30mm GAU-8; and .50 cal GAU-19/A and 19/B. The entire Technical Data Packages (TDPs) for the .50 cal GAU-19 gun is GD-OTS Proprietary and portions of the TDPs for the 25mm GAU-12/GAU-22 and 30mm GAU-8 guns are GD-OTS proprietary. GD-OTS has also developed the ammunition handling systems that support integrating these multi-barrel weapons in every frontline aircraft for the US Government.
<breathes a huge sigh of relief>
 
I

Ian33

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sferrin said:
TomS said:
sferrin said:
Moose said:
General Dynamics would like a few words with you.
If they've acquired the tooling, and still have the know-how, for the GAU-8 I would be delighted to be wrong. :)
General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems bought (by way of Lockheed Martin) the GE activity that originally developed the GAU-8. GD-OTS is is actively supporting GAU-8 with spares. Given that new GAU-8s are still being produced for Goalkeeper installations for the ROKN, it seems that new guns are being made, and GD-OTS is the only company that can do that.


http://www.usaopps.com/government_bids/detail/ADP14012808290000301.htm


The Naval Surface Warfare Center, Dahlgren Division intends to acquire continued research, development, analysis, testing documentation, prototype fabrication, pre-production, and production of Gatling Gun weapon systems hardware and associated gun control systems software. The effort will be fulfilled through other than full and open competition with General Dynamics - Ordnance and Tactical Systems (GD-OTS), Williston Technology Center, 326 IBM Road, Building 862, Williston, VT 05494. This requirement encompasses several different variants of this multi-barrel gun (to include the 25mm GAU-12 and GAU-22; 30mm GAU-8; .50cal GAU-19/A and 19/B; and the 20mm M61 and 3 barrel variant M197). GD-OTS is the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) for these guns and has been in continuous production for these guns for almost 70 years. No other company can produce these guns new. GD-OTS is the Current Design Authority (CDA) for the 25mm GAU-12 and GAU-22; 30mm GAU-8; and .50 cal GAU-19/A and 19/B. The entire Technical Data Packages (TDPs) for the .50 cal GAU-19 gun is GD-OTS Proprietary and portions of the TDPs for the 25mm GAU-12/GAU-22 and 30mm GAU-8 guns are GD-OTS proprietary. GD-OTS has also developed the ammunition handling systems that support integrating these multi-barrel weapons in every frontline aircraft for the US Government.
Then...

<breathes a huge sigh of relief>
I joined you then raised a fine single malt to the Gods as thanks.
 

marauder2048

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Curious to see how well the combination of APKWS II and 25mm on AV-8B work out CAS-wise against ISIS. Might inform some of the Air Force's deliberations.
 

LowObservable

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That was a strange discussion about guns. I'd have thought it was pretty obvious that someone had to be able to make the GAU-22/A...
 

sferrin

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LowObservable said:
That was a strange discussion about guns. I'd have thought it was pretty obvious that someone had to be able to make the GAU-22/A...
Sure. Doesn't mean it's the same company that built the GAU-8.
 

Gildasd

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sferrin said:
LowObservable said:
That was a strange discussion about guns. I'd have thought it was pretty obvious that someone had to be able to make the GAU-22/A...
Sure. Doesn't mean it's the same company that built the GAU-8.
Or that due to improvements in materials, maybe 3 or even 1 barrel is sufficient...
 

sferrin

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Gildasd said:
sferrin said:
LowObservable said:
That was a strange discussion about guns. I'd have thought it was pretty obvious that someone had to be able to make the GAU-22/A...
Sure. Doesn't mean it's the same company that built the GAU-8.
Or that due to improvements in materials, maybe 3 or even 1 barrel is sufficient...
I hadn't heard of any discovery of Unobtainium yet so I'm kinda thinking "no" on that front. Besides, this has zero to do with whether or not anybody is currently building the GAU-8 so I'm not sure what your point is suppose to be.
 

muttbutt

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I have the feeling this may just be the USAF shining on the US-Army with a "look we're doing something" so the US-A won't make a push for a fixed wing CAS aircraft themselves.

I don't think this will ever see the light of day. :-[
 

Gildasd

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sferrin said:
Gildasd said:
sferrin said:
LowObservable said:
That was a strange discussion about guns. I'd have thought it was pretty obvious that someone had to be able to make the GAU-22/A...
Sure. Doesn't mean it's the same company that built the GAU-8.
Or that due to improvements in materials, maybe 3 or even 1 barrel is sufficient...
I hadn't heard of any discovery of Unobtainium yet so I'm kinda thinking "no" on that front. Besides, this has zero to do with whether or not anybody is currently building the GAU-8 so I'm not sure what your point is suppose to be.
Ceramics for one... Very good at keeping heat of the combustion out of the metal, and metals have improved a lot since the GAU etc.
Different coatings that limit the need for lubirification/maintenance or composite support. Just look a what Space X is doing with it's engines with printed titanium...
Why build a "Vintage" GAU, why not have the same or more fire power for less weight and complexity?
 

sferrin

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A ceramic gun barrel?
 

TomS

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sferrin said:
A ceramic gun barrel?
Ceramic liners or inserts in gun barrels are a recurring topic of research. They seem to be getting closer.
 

sferrin

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Gildasd said:
Ceramics for one... Very good at keeping heat of the combustion out of the metal, and metals have improved a lot since the GAU etc.
Different coatings that limit the need for lubirification/maintenance or composite support. Just look a what Space X is doing with it's engines with printed titanium...
Why build a "Vintage" GAU, why not have the same or more fire power for less weight and complexity?
I realize "ceramics" and "3D printing" are the uber buzzwords of the day but ceramics aren't THAT good and 3D printing does nothing for improving the properties of material. It just makes it easier to shape parts that would be difficult or impossible to cast or machine.
 

marauder2048

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An inductive fuze setter for a programmable burst (airburst, point detonation + delay etc) cannon round would be an interesting trade against a higher ROF or higher muzzle velocity.
 

sferrin

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marauder2048 said:
An inductive fuze setter for a programmable burst (airburst, point detonation + delay etc) cannon round would be an interesting trade against a higher ROF or higher muzzle velocity.
I was wondering if they could stuff a Millennium gun in the space taken by a GAU-8.
 

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sferrin said:
I realize "ceramics" and "3D printing" are the uber buzzwords of the day but ceramics aren't THAT good and 3D printing does nothing for improving the properties of material. It just makes it easier to shape parts that would be difficult or impossible to cast or machine.
Well if you don't need to be busting tanks all day & are primarily tasked with CAS maybe you could do with a hot 25 & some fancy new programmable shells.

Don't like ceramic? how about glass steel?
http://www.gizmag.com/steel-alloy-strong-nanotechnology-sintering/42648/

K~
 

sferrin

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aethertek said:
sferrin said:
I realize "ceramics" and "3D printing" are the uber buzzwords of the day but ceramics aren't THAT good and 3D printing does nothing for improving the properties of material. It just makes it easier to shape parts that would be difficult or impossible to cast or machine.
Well if you don't need to be busting tanks all day & are primarily tasked with CAS maybe you could do with a hot 25 & some fancy new programmable shells.

Don't like ceramic? how about glass steel?
http://www.gizmag.com/steel-alloy-strong-nanotechnology-sintering/42648/

K~
Let me know when I can order some bar stock. Yeah. . .
 
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