Early european rocketry projects

Barrington Bond said:
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1961/1961%20-%200202.html?search=blue%20streak
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That so called "Strasbourg proposal"
after 1960 proposal of a British-French Rocket (Blue Streak and Émeraude)
they came on Idea that other European country's can join the project
so came in 1961 the Strasbourg proposal and later ELDO
 
Poor photocopy I'm afraid. From an Australian magazine I think. Proclaims to be first picture of complete Blue Streak. Any ideas for unidentified missiles? Minuteman, Polaris?
 

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those looks more like upperstage for Blue Streak...
 
Michel Van said:
those looks more like upperstage for Blue Streak...
[
/quote]


Hi Barringtoin Bond.

Super posting. My first impression was yes.

Now not sure
Now Agree with Michel Van

It was planned that Blue Streak No 11 the first UK/Commonwealth Military SLV was to have launched dummy upper stages.

These upper stages were also to be launched separately, in a development series.


Believe the option was for either Two, Three and Four vehicle launcher package.

Not sure until I find document and read it again but maybe the three upper-stages also being capable of independently launching a small satellite to LEO?


I believe but not certain that these were different and bigger than the proposed Black Knight derived civil vehicle.

Have No details but these models seem to fit the planned first Military phase.


The planned TSR2 secure communication net north would have needed to cover the high latitude regions and a four stage vehicle might be useful?


The proposed RR LH/LOX rockets are of interest have seen drawings of different engines but do not know the vehicles they were intended for.

Fifteen ton thrust engine is big and seems more likely atop the cargo SLV.?

Would the Tree ton or Six ton LH /LOX Rolls-Royce engine fit the Second stage?
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Sitting in my parents attic for 15 years and forgotten about I looked through my copies of Space Flight News and discovered these.

They are not definitely named but the article mentions Blue Streak with Italian boosters and Blue Treak boosters but I'm not sure that is what the pics are of?!

Regards,
Barry
 

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Barrington Bond said:
They are not definitely named but the article mentions Blue Streak with Italian boosters and Blue Treak boosters but I'm not sure that is what the pics are of?!

Regards,
Barry
Click to expand...
OMG Wat a Discovery !

your sure that's Italian ?
look more like French Thrust augmented Eldos Rockets
with P16 stages
index.php


And this
index.php

the rockets on far right is proposal of SEREB thrust augmented version
use very Big Segmented solid-propellent booster like UA1205 (the Booster of Titan III C)
2 mø by 18 meter length

but the Italians work close with french during ELDO
like Europa IIIC Rocket Propsal
 
Interesting

B5 sound ELDO-B study

on Italian solid Booster for TA Europa Rockets
can this be a spin off from the ALFA missile ?
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2808.0.html


next to that was Europa IIIC by FIAT (yes the Car builder)
odd proposal of a 4xRZ.2 Engine Blue Streak, but Build by the French and Italy ! ! !
French Nord Aviation build the propellants Tanks and FIAT the rest
then the stages had move to England for test firering
(the 4XRZ.2 are thrust reduce !)
and there to Launch site, with Italy that had be San Marco Launch platform ::)
 
Michel Van said:
Interesting

B5 sound ELDO-B study

on Italian solid Booster for TA Europa Rockets
can this be a spin off from the ALFA missile ?
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2808.0.html


next to that was Europa IIIC by FIAT (yes the Car builder)
odd proposal of a 4xRZ.2 Engine Blue Streak, but Build by the French and Italy ! ! !
French Nord Aviation build the propellants Tanks and FIAT the rest
then the stages had move to England for test firering
(the 4XRZ.2 are thrust reduce !)
and there to Launch site, with Italy that had be San Marco Launch platform ::)
Click to expand...

Hi Michel
This may explain why the only existing detailed drawings of the 4xRZ2 cluster are to be found in Italy
 
Spark said:
Hi Michel
This may explain why the only existing detailed drawings of the 4xRZ2 cluster are to be found in Italy
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yep, but there also British proposal with RZ2 cluster
like Booster for BIS 1960 Manned Lunar Programm
index.php

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6954.0.html


on Europa IIIC proposal, the first stage look allot (or is) first stage of this ELDO-C proposal
index.php
 
THX for Picture, Barrington Bond
that's French SEREB P16 Booster (from French ICBM project)

here Illustration from me for a Book
middel on right - standart 2 to 4 maximum Booster.
middel on left with 2xL17 Booster
index.php
 
OMG i miss the last post from April :-[

about low cost proposal Europa III by Germans,
in 1971 the German Federal Ministry of Education and Research
gave 4 assignments to ERNO, Dornier, MAN and Technlogieforschung GmbH
to study a low cost version of Europa IIIB Rocket
ERNO (Entwicklungs Ring Nord) use French hardware...
the MAN proposed use of Europa II hardware in Europa III
and liquid booster for Europa III, they build them later for Ariane 4 ::)
Dornier presend the Modular Concept ELGO
but most interresting is Low cost "Shuttle booster concept"
by Technlogieforschung GmbH because, its founder was Lutz Thilo Kayser
His Brother work at Doriner on ELGO project

until 1974 the German Federal Ministry of Education and Research
gave 4 million D-Mark to Technlogieforschung GmbH for the study and a prototype engine
but the german goverment decision to take Ariane rocket, terminate the assignment
then Lutz Kayser founded in 1974 the "Orbital Transport und Raketen AG" short OTRAG...
Source:
http://www.bernd-leitenberger.de/otrag1.shtml

Thx for Picture Barrington Bond
 
Michel Van said:
i Found littel bit more Info

in 1970 were FIVE Proposal for EUROPA III

Europa IIIA Blue Streak with H14 - launch mass 110t
Europa IIIB French L120 with H25 - launch mass 160t
Europa IIIC L140 (4xRZ-13) with H17 - launch mass 175t
Europa IIID H50 with H17 - launch mass 78t
Europa IIIE Cluster

the IIIE design is very vague a 3 stage rocket from Cluster of fuel tanks
7 tanks in first stage 3 in second and Coralie as Third stage
is Europa IIIE identical with Supervulcain B ?

got some one info about this, Please !

in end Europa IIIB was the winner and later reborn as Ariane 1

source (in German)
http://www.bernd-leitenberger.de/europa.shtml
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I've found the missing link between Europa IIIB and the L3S, future Ariane.
Europa IIIB had an HM-20 cryogenic second stage - too much risk. The HM-20 later evolved into the HM-60, then into the Vulcain. But it took a lot of time and money.
Before the L3S, France proposed a variant of Europa IIIB with smaller cryogenic engines - a couple of HM-7. That was called the Europa III - N, N standing for national.
Even the HM-7, however, had its share of troubles later: of seven Ariane 1 /4 mishaps, five can be traced to the third stage.
In the end, the HM-20 / twin HM-7 cryo stage 2 were replaced by a plain old Viking, and that led to Ariane 1 as we know it.

Source:
Les 30 premières années du CNES 1962 - 1995

http://books.google.fr/books?id=On4gAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Europa+IIIN%22&dq=%22Europa+IIIN%22&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=FPMGT7GmI9Cf8gOA9ammAQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA
 
Michel,

I think there might be a link between the "OTRAG connection" you mentioned in your last post, and the mysterious Europa III-E. The "Europa III-E" entry in google books brings some interesting results.

1972

MAN in co-operation with LRBA develops an economical concept for a satellite launching system. M.Simon. MA JV. Res. Eng. Mfg. (Germany), no. 1. p.7-9 (1971)

The following satellite launching system programme EUROPA III E is presented; In a first phase, short-term development of the optimal-cost system with medium-energy (N:0»/UDMH), parallel-clustered modules in the 1st and 2nd stage
Click to expand...

Sounds as if the Europa III-E proposal linked LRBA Diamant and MAN future OTRAG (which apeared a tad later, circa 1974).

It looks as if Air&Cosmos 317 and 322 contains bits of information on that proposal - and I know where to find them (at my beloved CAEA, signature)
 
Thanks for info Arichibald


this EUROPA IIIE proposal sound more like LRBA Supervulcain B rocket build from clustered tanks
index.php



http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2975.0.html
 
Does that Turquoise H enlarge for the upper stage, then get a little narrower? Or is that just a scanning issue?

If so, I think that's cool, but it strikes me as impractical. Engineers prefer to avoid hammerhead shapes on rockets if they can, because it makes the aerodynamics more complicated. Best to keep the same diameter if possible, but if you have to change it, don't then change it again.
 
blackstar said:
Does that Turquoise H enlarge for the upper stage, then get a little narrower? Or is that just a scanning issue?

If so, I think that's cool, but it strikes me as impractical. Engineers prefer to avoid hammerhead shapes on rockets if they can, because it makes the aerodynamics more complicated. Best to keep the same diameter if possible, but if you have to change it, don't then change it again.
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nope the Lh2/lox stage is bigger as Payload bay.
that typical with rockets with mix propulsion system like Solid/liquid.
i think those aerodynamics problems you mention are the reason why Turquoise H never was build
 
Thanks. There are probably other reasons why Turquoise was not built.

They could easily solve the diameter problem by making the shroud the same diameter as the upper stage. That would increase weight, but probably not too much.
 
blackstar said:
Thanks. There are probably other reasons why Turquoise was not built.

They could easily solve the diameter problem by making the shroud the same diameter as the upper stage. That would increase weight, but probably not too much.
Click to expand...

the other reason was that Solid booster were Military ICBM hardware and CNES don't wanted be dependency from them

they try the shroud thing with Lanceur 3ième Génération Substitution (L3S) from 1972
were third stage are in a shroud with same diameter as second stage
in 1973 the L3S redesigned into Ariane 1 the second and third stage got same diameter.

by the way
A picture of L3S and Ariane 1
 

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What for surprise
on NTRS got a PDF about ELDO-B1 B2 program !
http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19660001120
 
THX for grabbing, blackstar
I wandet to do this today ;D
 
blackstar said:
Michel Van said:
I wandet to this today
Click to expand...

Er... what?

Too bad the original quality is poor. The lines are faded.
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dam i forgot "do" "I wandet to do this today" :-[
yep the picture need heavy dose of photoshop
 
mz said:
Michel Van said:
What for surprise
on NTRS got a PDF about ELDO-B1 B2 program !
http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19660001120
Click to expand...

European public relations and information outreach are about a thousand times worse than American. We have to rely on NASA for information on European launchers.
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So true ! Recently I located a 1982 CNES paper on early Ariane 5 concepts; it was on NTRS, and inj english, that I red and downloaded it...
 
Archibald said:
So true ! Recently I located a 1982 CNES paper on early Ariane 5 concepts; it was on NTRS, and inj english, that I red and downloaded it...
Click to expand...


you got the link ?
 
Bump

Some Info and Data on ELDO, French and German EUROPA vehicle improvement.
Had program had go on this would be made.

the Blue Streak modification (Is made on Europa 2)
increase the Thrust of RZ.2 from 667 to 758 kN vac,
decrease in Blue streak empty mass and 5 tons more fuel.

the Coralie modification
removal of fuel tank of Gas generator and use the stage Fuel for that: reduction of stage length and mass
Replace UDMH with Aerozin-50 ! higher ISP 300 and Cost reduction by using same fuel for Second and Third stage.
also reduction of length or 400 kg more fuel.
Using Vasomax 300CVM steel for tanks what reduce stage mass by 100 kg

The Astris modification
has to beef up structural for heavier Payload (original Astris was design for 900kg payload)
increase fuels to 2937 kg (made on Europa 2)
it's vernier engine boost to thrust of 500 N,
to give Astris the possibly to restart or make movement with 1m/sec.
was needed for longer free flight phase to bring Payload in higher orbit.
also was study the idea to use Astris only with vernier engine, NO main engine

the Flight profile for Woomera, was change for the Kourou launch.
so rocket only fly for 10 sec vertical, then change to 0,603% inclination.
the flight pad of Astris was change to 150 km x 200 km to push the payload to 420 kg in GEO

Next to that were New Hardware proposal
HEROS (5 tons Lox/hydrogen) stage in size of Astris (HEROS a ELDO Study ?)
also look the German on possibility to attach small Solid booster on Europa upper stages

Source:
Europäische Trägerraketen Band 1
by Bernd Leitenberger, BoD ISBN-9783837095913

Luftfahrttechnik Raumfahrttechnik volume 16. issue Nr4. april 1970
page 81 to 118.
 
Thank you Michel. I wanted to post the link to the document, but I've lost it on my hard disk... it sunk without a trace :(
 
Archibald said:
Thank you Michel. I wanted to post the link to the document, but I've lost it on my hard disk... it sunk without a trace :(
Click to expand...


that's sad,
one of many reason i use now a Apple Computer...
 
I have found them ! But now I'm unable to re-locate them on the NTRS or DTIC (all hail the accronyms)
Anybody interest drops me a mail, please.
 

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