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Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY (TEMPORARY)

TomcatViP

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The difference is that those planes were paid at a decent price and the context different (war). Iraki SE in particular were loaned (and given the spirit of the days, the financial compensation would certainly have been rewarding).
Here, we have planes just out of an upgrade that have been expected for long by the AdlAE in a context where minimal commitment to the programmatic law are not even met)!
 

Jemiba

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Please, would all participants here be gracious enough to discuss the Dassault
Rafale only, and not French arms policy, or maybe selling weapons to certain
customers at giveaway prices ? Probably interesting discussions, too, but as
the word "arms policy" already suggests, it would too easily stray into politics,
apart from the fact, that this thread principally still is a NEWS ONLY thread ...
For the usual suspects in this thread, this is a warning, the second for one of them.
For all others, who might be tempted to jump on this bandwagon, of course, too !
 

Deltafan

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Visitation by Dassault official to Our MOD

https://www.kemhan.go.id/pothan/202...viation-perancis-ke-dirjen-pothan-kemhan.html

The team was actually arrived earlier but they got delayed due to our sudden COVID-19 prevention policy.
Thanks a lot stealthflanker :D

Can you help us for the translation of the article ?

I understood (thanks to Google trad) :

Thursday February 11, 2021. Director General Pothan Kemhan, accompanied by other Indonesian officials, received the visit of a delegation from Dassault. On this occasion, the Director General declared that this meeting was a presentation of the French company, represented by the vice-president of business development, Jean Claude Piccirillo, and the vice-president of Dassault Offset, Michael Paskoff.

Director General Pothan welcomed the arrival of the Dassault delegation as part of the acquisition of the Rafale multi-role combat aircraft. He hopes that defense cooperation between Indonesia and France will benefit both sides and can advance the Indonesian defense industry.

The two sides hope that discussions on offsets for the acquisition of the Rafales will take place in a good atmosphere, while allowing progress on both sides, as well as an early implementation.

What is good, or not, in my translation ?
 

TomcatViP

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The UAE has yet to determine its replacement for its old Mirage 2000 fleet, while keeping a commitment to the European industry. Although it is still unclear whether the Gulf country is planning to upgrade its current Mirage fleet, sources tell Breaking D that negotiations on the Rafale deal re-surfaced again.

“The Emiratis were very close to sealing the deal years ago, but they turned it down because the price was too high,” said one military source who wished not to be named. “Today, they are potentially considering 36 to 60 units because the jet’s price became more competitive due to the spike of Rafale sales to the region and abroad.”

The UAE could be eying “the F4 version armed with SCALP and Meteor missiles,” he added, a standard that will notably improve the connectivity of the Rafale and its ability to operate as part of a any network.
However the report makes the case that Rafale could be in direct competition with the 15X, something that was anticipated long ago. The key in this battle is in overall cost of ownership that the report study trough force integration.
It will also remain interesting how market ruling will impact the outcome with an US administration that would undoubtedly perpetuate its scrutiny against European market share gains.

 
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Grey Havoc

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On the other hand, the Biden administration has already blotted its copybook pretty badly with the UAE, not to mention other Middle Eastern countries such as Saudi Arabia and Israel. Which may have a rather unfortunate effect on any future attempted exports to that region.
 

TomcatViP

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True. But I don't think that any sain ppl would let go the opportunity to get their hands on some F-35

—-------------------
A Mig29 refuelling an Egyptian Rafale:
1613603403832-png.650975

View attachment 650975

As someone a link to the related video?
 
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TomcatViP

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TomcatViP

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Deltafan

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I don't know if it's "nebulous", but your post in Indonesian does not come from Turkey but from Indonesia. As this one that I did not share before on SPF, because I was not able to give a good translation (and there is a mistake of years : 2012 instead of 2021).


For the Rafale part there is something as :

For the Indonesian Air Force, the plan is to modernize and refurbished all fighter aircraft and to procure combat and transport aircraft, such as 36 Dassault Rafale multi role combat aircraft (MRCA), 15 F-15EX units, 15 Hercules C-130J units, up to two multi role tanker transport (MRTT) tanker units.
 

TomcatViP

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I don't know if it's "nebulous", but your post in Indonesian does not come from Turkey but from Indonesia.
I perfectly know it doesn't come from Turkey... That why I selected it, an Indonesian websites, given that the Buyer is from that country.

We will see how this unfold but be aware that on my radar this news appeared first on two Turkish website (identical report) before making surface in Indonesia.

I understand that we are lucky to have some Indonesian poster here so let's wait what's their take on it if they would be pleased to share ;)
 

Deltafan

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Well, give us the links of these turkish sources. It will be interesting to see day and hour.
 

starviking

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okay to confirm
Indonesia has or will have:

Hawk 200, T/A-50s, F-16s, F-5s, Su-27s, Su-30, Rafale, F-15, Typhoon, KFX
makes sense
Just the geopolitical military diplomacy of the general area writ large.

Malaysia: Hawk 200, F-18s, Su-27, Mig-29
Thailand: Alpha Jet, F-5, F-16, Gripen
 

Archibald

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okay to confirm
Indonesia has or will have:

Hawk 200, T/A-50s, F-16s, F-5s, Su-27s, Su-30, Rafale, F-15, Typhoon, KFX
makes sense
Just the geopolitical military diplomacy of the general area writ large.

Malaysia: Hawk 200, F-18s, Su-27, Mig-29
Thailand: Alpha Jet, F-5, F-16, Gripen

And "Matador" Harriers, vintage 1971, standing on the deck of the most expensive Royal Yacht in the world...
 
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TomcatViP

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A warning for inappropriate language for remembering a member how to be polite with his demands!!!!
 
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TomcatViP

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1613745997950.png


Remark that they are supposed to have the power lines location in their navigation database so they weren't probably in automatic terrain following mode.
 

stealthflanker

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Visitation by Dassault official to Our MOD

https://www.kemhan.go.id/pothan/202...viation-perancis-ke-dirjen-pothan-kemhan.html

The team was actually arrived earlier but they got delayed due to our sudden COVID-19 prevention policy.
Thanks a lot stealthflanker :D

Can you help us for the translation of the article ?

I understood (thanks to Google trad) :

Thursday February 11, 2021. Director General Pothan Kemhan, accompanied by other Indonesian officials, received the visit of a delegation from Dassault. On this occasion, the Director General declared that this meeting was a presentation of the French company, represented by the vice-president of business development, Jean Claude Piccirillo, and the vice-president of Dassault Offset, Michael Paskoff.

Director General Pothan welcomed the arrival of the Dassault delegation as part of the acquisition of the Rafale multi-role combat aircraft. He hopes that defense cooperation between Indonesia and France will benefit both sides and can advance the Indonesian defense industry.

The two sides hope that discussions on offsets for the acquisition of the Rafales will take place in a good atmosphere, while allowing progress on both sides, as well as an early implementation.

What is good, or not, in my translation ?

That's pretty much on point. Excellent work.


Regarding latest news tho... I would suggest following Alman Helvas Ali. He is former Janes contributor for our country

 

Deltafan

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Visitation by Dassault official to Our MOD

https://www.kemhan.go.id/pothan/202...viation-perancis-ke-dirjen-pothan-kemhan.html

The team was actually arrived earlier but they got delayed due to our sudden COVID-19 prevention policy.
Thanks a lot stealthflanker :D

Can you help us for the translation of the article ?

I understood (thanks to Google trad) :

Thursday February 11, 2021. Director General Pothan Kemhan, accompanied by other Indonesian officials, received the visit of a delegation from Dassault. On this occasion, the Director General declared that this meeting was a presentation of the French company, represented by the vice-president of business development, Jean Claude Piccirillo, and the vice-president of Dassault Offset, Michael Paskoff.

Director General Pothan welcomed the arrival of the Dassault delegation as part of the acquisition of the Rafale multi-role combat aircraft. He hopes that defense cooperation between Indonesia and France will benefit both sides and can advance the Indonesian defense industry.

The two sides hope that discussions on offsets for the acquisition of the Rafales will take place in a good atmosphere, while allowing progress on both sides, as well as an early implementation.

What is good, or not, in my translation ?

That's pretty much on point. Excellent work.


Regarding latest news tho... I would suggest following Alman Helvas Ali. He is former Janes contributor for our country

Thank you very much stealthflanker, we will follow your advice ;)
 

totoro

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Does anyone have a news article or a publication that expands on the F3R standard conversion numbers? How many older planes have been modernized to that standard? And what's the overall pace of conversion? How many planes can be expected to be converted to said standard in the Air force and in the Navy?
 

Deltafan

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Does anyone have a news article or a publication that expands on the F3R standard conversion numbers? How many older planes have been modernized to that standard? And what's the overall pace of conversion? How many planes can be expected to be converted to said standard in the Air force and in the Navy?
Hi Totoro,

I saw that you asked a similar question a few months ago, but I didn't and don't have the precise answers. For the moment, I can only report what is in the French Wikipedia article on the Rafale (and confirmed in many articles) :

On November 8, 2018, the DGA (the French General Directorate of Armaments) announced the qualification of the F3-R standard and confirmed that all the 144 Rafale already operational in the French army will be gradually upgraded to the F3-R standard, including the first ten before the end of 2018.

 
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totoro

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Thanks for that article, it's the only source I know so far that sets a timetable. It does seem a bit peculiar that new radar sets and other avionics would be replaced at a pace of 30+ per year though.

Having 10 planes modernized to F3R by 2018 (roughly within a year?) as the wiki article source claims and then further dozen or so per year onward would seem like something more suitable to otherwise glacial pace of procurement of new stuff that French air force seems to be able to afford.

Anyway, to sum it up - there is probably at least several dozen (50+?) of a 100 F3R in service with the French air force and Naval aviation (that's if the airinternational article is wrong) and possibly upward of 100 in service (if the airinternational article is right) ?
 

Deltafan

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Thanks for that article, it's the only source I know so far that sets a timetable. It does seem a bit peculiar that new radar sets and other avionics would be replaced at a pace of 30+ per year though.

Having 10 planes modernized to F3R by 2018 (roughly within a year?) as the wiki article source claims and then further dozen or so per year onward would seem like something more suitable to otherwise glacial pace of procurement of new stuff that French air force seems to be able to afford.

Anyway, to sum it up - there is probably at least several dozen (50+?) of a 100 F3R in service with the French air force and Naval aviation (that's if the airinternational article is wrong) and possibly upward of 100 in service (if the airinternational article is right) ?

My two cents :

According to these two French websites :


Only a few hours are needed to "update" F3 to F3R
it would only take a few hours to integrate the F3-R into the aircraft system

but I am not able to confirm or not (and it seems that the information for the first link comes from the second.).


For the rest, i can only said that

-in the Navy, among the three flottillas (11F, 17F and 12F), the 12F will be the last to be upgraded to the F3-R stage. It seems that the three flottillas could be upgraded for summer 2021 :
The 11F is the first flotilla to obtain this qualification and thus precedes the 17F then the 12F for a GAé "all F3-R" in the summer of 2021.
but a "Groupe aéronaval" (GAé) is 24 (to 36 if necessary) Rafale on the "Charles de Gaulle".

-For the Air Force, among the seven Rafale escadrons, I saw that the F3-R upgrade is present on planes of the 4th and the 30th Escadres, but i don't know how much planes in the three escadrons of each. Conversely, I never saw that a plane of the 1/7 escadron was upgraded. For example :

For the rythm : it seems that the Air Force got 50 Rafale F3-R in 2020 (we have seen above that it would be 10 for Navy and AF in 2018. For the moment, 2019 and 2021 are lacking, and 2020 for Navy too) :
In 2020, the French Air Force should receive 50 Rafale at F3R standard


But to be sure I think that it would be better to wait for official announces from France to say that all the Rafale are F3-R (or, separately, that all Navy or Air Force planes have been upgraded).
 
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totoro

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Thanks for all that info! Just to be clear, I have to ask perhaps a stupid question.
F3 does not include AESA array?
And F3R does include it?

If so, that'd mean there's hardware change to happen during the conversion process to F3R. Can that really be done, tested and certified in just a few hours?
 

TomcatViP

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F3 had interchangeable nose cone Pesa/ Aesa. I understand that F3R brings it's own Aesa with the refined hardware that had proved fatal to the OSF suite (FLIR).
The software part of the upgrade is certainly something that can be done in a day if you discard the battery of checks and valitdation tests that are needed for something meant to fly safely further beyond the runway threshold.
My 2 cents.

(and that's not realistic since soft testing wouldn't happen before all the subcomponents (hardware) have been properly installed (and tested)).
 
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Deltafan

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Thanks for all that info! Just to be clear, I have to ask perhaps a stupid question.
F3 does not include AESA array?
And F3R does include it?

If so, that'd mean there's hardware change to happen during the conversion process to F3R. Can that really be done, tested and certified in just a few hours?
AESA was already in the F3 standard. But, for money reasons, there are only 60 AESA which were sold with the last batch (the 4th, from September 2013) of 60 Rafale (50 for the AF and 10 for the Navy). But, yes, they are interchangeable with the PESA of batches 1, 2 and 3.


(For the OSF too: )



The F3 standard brings the following changes:

-The addition to the Thales RBE2 radar of an active antenna (AESA) equipped with a thousand gallium arsenide transceiver modules instead of a single traveling wave tube (TOP) and allowing an increase of 50 % of span;
-A new version of the OSF, the OSF-IT, which sees the elimination of the obsolete double infrared channel and will be satisfied with an improved TV channel;

A sensor insensitive to jamming
In 2013, Rafale's F3-O4T standard saw the removal of the OSF IR channel in favor of a more efficient TV sensor: OSF-IT (Improve Technology). It was operational at the end of 2012 and has a longer range detection capability.
 
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TomcatViP

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The comprehensive take of the Aviationist on the informal Cable snapping activity that broke recent news headline:

 

totoro

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AESA was already in the F3 standard. But, for money reasons, there are only 60 AESA which were sold with the last batch (the 4th, from September 2013) of 60 Rafale (50 for the AF and 10 for the Navy). But, yes, they are interchangeable with the PESA of batches 1, 2 and 3.

Let me see if I understand the situation then:
There are roughly 140 Rafales out there in the French Service.
Of those, 60 are F3 with AESA.
and 80 are F3 without AESA.

Now the entire fleet will be converting from F3 to F3R.

But will that mean that the 80 F3 without AESA will remain without it, even in F3R variant?
Or does the conversion automatically mean AESA array will be installed?
Or will the remaining 80 get the AESA eventually, but not necessarily soon; perhaps during a separate modernization effort to come in the coming years?
 

TomcatViP

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The radar is a modified one and comes with each upgraded airframe.
The AESA cones were said to be interchangeable (an heresy IMOHO) and French Navy's Rafale were seen shipped with extra radar sets that were to be fitted on demand by the ship maintenance.

F3R apparently fixes that among many other points.
 
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