Dassault Mirage III V/STOL Derivatives (Balzac, IIIV)
- Thread starter Jemiba
- Start date
- Joined
- 8 January 2006
- Messages
- 1,605
- Reaction score
- 678
What's not always appreciated is that ZELL requires the thrust vector of the booster to go through the combined cg of the overall flying package or you get some difficult handling on launch (USAF ran into this with a prepared F-100 that sat in the sun for most of the day before launching and differential thermal expansion shifted the cg sufficiently to make the launch handling "sporting". Having worked on a missile with two boosters, I am quite familiar with the tolerances required on booster thrust alignment.
F.L.
ACCESS: Top Secret
Better and better, great ! 
F.L.
ACCESS: Top Secret
It all depends if the objective is to have a conversion two-seater or an operational two-seater in F-4 style.
On the other hand, I don't know what would have been the use of an operational two-seater of the IIIV.
Before the 2000N/D (1983-88) the French Air force was committed to single-seat strikers, even if pilot overload could be bad. Jaguar wasn't really all weather hence the workload was manageable; but Mirage IIIE pilots lives were hard at times.
Even more in the SEAD missions with the massive AS-37 Martels: a RIO in the back would have been welcome !
USAF in Vietnam had similar issues with F-100s and F-105s, Thunderstick was a good system but not easy for a single pilot in bad weather at low level. Of course no such issues with the Phantom. F-104G, same issues.
Bottom line: F-105D, F-104G or Mirage IIIE low level / bad weather / strike, single pilot, with the wrong ergonomy ? Tricky. Very tricky at times. The British were more logicals, both Buccaneer and TSR-2 were two seaters, this for good reasons. Single seaters like Hunters or Scimitars were day only, not all weather.
This is a lot of words just to say that a two-seat Mirage III-V would have been for advanced training and conversion like the IIIB. For strike it would have been single-seat, F-105D style.
Provided of course the pilot survived the tricky VTOL liftoff: the Balzac V killed two pilots in less than two years - French CEV test pilot J. Pinier and USAF Major Neale. Also the III-V 02 crashed in 11/1966 only two months after breaking the (unofficial) VSTOL prototype world speed record: close from Mach 2.
The whole VSTOL Mirage saga was detailed by Le Fana de l'aviation late 1997 (25 years ago ! Was in high school... time is flying, folks !)
Even more in the SEAD missions with the massive AS-37 Martels: a RIO in the back would have been welcome !
USAF in Vietnam had similar issues with F-100s and F-105s, Thunderstick was a good system but not easy for a single pilot in bad weather at low level. Of course no such issues with the Phantom. F-104G, same issues.
Bottom line: F-105D, F-104G or Mirage IIIE low level / bad weather / strike, single pilot, with the wrong ergonomy ? Tricky. Very tricky at times. The British were more logicals, both Buccaneer and TSR-2 were two seaters, this for good reasons. Single seaters like Hunters or Scimitars were day only, not all weather.
This is a lot of words just to say that a two-seat Mirage III-V would have been for advanced training and conversion like the IIIB. For strike it would have been single-seat, F-105D style.
Provided of course the pilot survived the tricky VTOL liftoff: the Balzac V killed two pilots in less than two years - French CEV test pilot J. Pinier and USAF Major Neale. Also the III-V 02 crashed in 11/1966 only two months after breaking the (unofficial) VSTOL prototype world speed record: close from Mach 2.
The whole VSTOL Mirage saga was detailed by Le Fana de l'aviation late 1997 (25 years ago ! Was in high school... time is flying, folks !)
Last edited:
Never found the final word of that story, TBH.
Some basic facts
- happened in September 1966, prototype 02 (the one that crashed two months later - got a rather exciting but quite brief life)
- was non official (Istres flight test center near Marseille)
- Mach 2.04
No idea if either X-32, any F-35, or Yak-41 ever broke that record, officially or not.
Pretty funny to think how that Mach 2 VSTOL landmark eluded the many candidates chasing it across six decades
- VJ-101: never made it that fast (albeit it went supersonic AFAIK ?)
- P.1154: never flew
- XVF-12: better not to talk about it
- Convair 200: could have, but the above criminal stupidity
- Yak-41: came close, but too late, post Cold War killed it
- X-32, X-35, F-35: too "slow" ?
Btw, could a F-35 hit mach 2 in a steep dive ? so much brute thrust, such a low speed...
Some basic facts
- happened in September 1966, prototype 02 (the one that crashed two months later - got a rather exciting but quite brief life)
- was non official (Istres flight test center near Marseille)
- Mach 2.04
No idea if either X-32, any F-35, or Yak-41 ever broke that record, officially or not.
Pretty funny to think how that Mach 2 VSTOL landmark eluded the many candidates chasing it across six decades
- VJ-101: never made it that fast (albeit it went supersonic AFAIK ?)
- P.1154: never flew
- XVF-12: better not to talk about it
- Convair 200: could have, but the above criminal stupidity
- Yak-41: came close, but too late, post Cold War killed it
- X-32, X-35, F-35: too "slow" ?
Btw, could a F-35 hit mach 2 in a steep dive ? so much brute thrust, such a low speed...
Last edited:
I checked Le Fana 337, December 1997.
The Mirage III-V 02 did flew to Mach 2.04 on September 12, 1966 BUT there are many caveats with that flight
- no Mirage III-V ever flew VTOL & supersonic on the same flight
- on september 12, 1966 the takeoff was classic
- this, for a simple reason: the RB.162s had been removed !
So the Mirage III-V doesn't have the world VSTOL speed record: it would be dishonest (for me or anyone else) to pretend the contrary.
Which begs an interesting question: which aircraft has the record, then ?
Three contenders:
- Boeing X-32
- Lockheed X-35 or F-35B
- Yak-41
In passing: never realized before that VJ-101 was the first ever supersonic VSTOL in July 1964: Mach 1.08. Kudos to the Germans to have pulled that one.
And just like the Mirage III-V 02, it crashed and burned exactly two months after that glory. "Sic transit gloria mundi".
Why did the 02 which had afterburners never went faster than that until 1968 or 1971, is beyond me.
Seems the Yak-141 set a whole bunch of records in 1991, but not speed. I checked the FAI website, and the VSTOL speed record category... doesn't exists anymore since 1969.
And you know which aircraft had the VSTOL official, FAI speed record by 1969 ? Do-31E (WTH ?) at 514 km/h. So much for all the pointy VSTOL fighters.
The Mirage III-V 02 did flew to Mach 2.04 on September 12, 1966 BUT there are many caveats with that flight
- no Mirage III-V ever flew VTOL & supersonic on the same flight
- on september 12, 1966 the takeoff was classic
- this, for a simple reason: the RB.162s had been removed !
So the Mirage III-V doesn't have the world VSTOL speed record: it would be dishonest (for me or anyone else) to pretend the contrary.
Which begs an interesting question: which aircraft has the record, then ?
Three contenders:
- Boeing X-32
- Lockheed X-35 or F-35B
- Yak-41
In passing: never realized before that VJ-101 was the first ever supersonic VSTOL in July 1964: Mach 1.08. Kudos to the Germans to have pulled that one.
And just like the Mirage III-V 02, it crashed and burned exactly two months after that glory. "Sic transit gloria mundi".
Why did the 02 which had afterburners never went faster than that until 1968 or 1971, is beyond me.
Seems the Yak-141 set a whole bunch of records in 1991, but not speed. I checked the FAI website, and the VSTOL speed record category... doesn't exists anymore since 1969.
And you know which aircraft had the VSTOL official, FAI speed record by 1969 ? Do-31E (WTH ?) at 514 km/h. So much for all the pointy VSTOL fighters.
Last edited:
F.L.
ACCESS: Top Secret
"Côte d'Or", great, my region !
Last edited:
F.L.
ACCESS: Top Secret
F.L.
ACCESS: Top Secret
Will you make a livery for the French Navy ?
It would have been great if the French Naval Aviation had used Amphibious Assault Ship equipped with Mirage IIIV.
It would have been great if the French Naval Aviation had used Amphibious Assault Ship equipped with Mirage IIIV.
- Joined
- 27 September 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
- Reaction score
- 5,637
Beautiful work.
The Mirage IIIV would have joined RAF HS1154 Harriers and Bundeswehr VJ101Ds in an amazing 1970s tactical line up.
West Germany also had the smaller VAK191 which might have replaced the G91 (also with Italy).
Finally, there was the mini F111 like AVS swing wing VSTOL developed by FRG and USA.
Sadly only the P1127RAF made it.
The Mirage IIIV would have joined RAF HS1154 Harriers and Bundeswehr VJ101Ds in an amazing 1970s tactical line up.
West Germany also had the smaller VAK191 which might have replaced the G91 (also with Italy).
Finally, there was the mini F111 like AVS swing wing VSTOL developed by FRG and USA.
Sadly only the P1127RAF made it.
- Joined
- 27 September 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
- Reaction score
- 5,637
I recall reading that in 1964 it was planned to replace France's 100 Super Sabre fighter-bombers with a similar number of Mirage IIIV.
If that had happened perhaps the same colour camouflage would have been used
www.britmodeller.com
Would be an interesting variant?
If that had happened perhaps the same colour camouflage would have been used
F-100 Armee de l'Air
I rather fancy building a Super Sabre in the "Vietnam type" camouflage scheme introduced in the 70s by the French Air Force. I am going to use Modeldecal set 69 however whilst the late Mr Ward gives FS colours for the upper surfaces, the underside is referred to as "matt pale blue-grey". As I am ...
www.britmodeller.com
Would be an interesting variant?
And in the end they were replaced by a mix of Jaguars and the cancelled Israel Mirage V (not Neshers: the original aircraft from the 1966 contract, pre- 6 day war & embargo).I recall reading that in 1964 it was planned to replace France's 100 Super Sabre fighter-bombers with a similar number of Mirage IIIV.
If that had happened perhaps the same colour camouflage would have been used
F-100 Armee de l'Air
I rather fancy building a Super Sabre in the "Vietnam type" camouflage scheme introduced in the 70s by the French Air Force. I am going to use Modeldecal set 69 however whilst the late Mr Ward gives FS colours for the upper surfaces, the underside is referred to as "matt pale blue-grey". As I am ...
Would be an interesting variant?
F.L.
ACCESS: Top Secret
Similar threads
-
-
V-Bomber Avionics Developments?- Started by JFC Fuller
- Replies: 15
-
-
SAAB, Svenska Aeroplanaktiebolaget, Svenska Aeroplan AB, Saab AB aircraft list.- Started by blockhaj
- Replies: 39