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CX-HLS (Cargo Experimental, Heavy Logistic Support) designs & derivatives

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PaulMM (Overscan) said:
GL-194 could be a Lockheed Georgia GL- series design. This would make it a Lockheed project. The identity of GL-194 is not known at present, so its possible.
Also, Lockheed Georgia specializes in large transport aircraft: C-130 Hercules, C-141 Starlifter, C-5 Galaxy. I'm with Overscan on that one: Lockheed.
 

AUSTIN_MILITARIA

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Found it listed in a book for sale on eBay. Weird..

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LOCKHEED-GEORGIA-DIVISION-FOLDER-ON-DIFFERENT-AIRCRAFT-/290929290786
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Serendipity :)


It looks like you were right about it being CX-HLS related, just the wrong manufacturer.


Are you sure it isn't labelled GL-194-12 on the base instead of -L2? This would tie in better with known designations.
 

alertken

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Just contemplate as Whifs: you will recall that Lockheed won the competition for (to be KC-135), that Boeing won an Interim, gap-filler batch, that Lockheed drifted, lost...shrugged and got on with some other job. So: whif:
Boeing/Pratt, having lost CX-HLS...shrug and get on with some other job. When Juan Trippe waved $100Mn. for 20, both Boards say...nah, no market, find a steady military job (say, try to split USN from GD's TFX, like GD's close buddy Grumman actually did, F-111B to F-14A).
So Lockheed in awhile schemes a civil C-5 variant, perhaps to encourage the bailout when they found they had underbid CX-HLS.
Where, then would Lockheed and Boeing be today?
 

hesham

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Great find my dear Flateric.
 

Grey Havoc

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Link to an on-going topic on a unknown design/s which has turned out to be the Lockheed-Georgia MPLE project. From a early '60s study presentation found by Skybolt:

MISSIONS CONSIDERED FOR MPLE


The missions considered in the July MPLE study were selected after discussions with Headquarters, USAF and several AF Commands. They are the Airborne Alert Weapon System, and the Post Attack Command and Control System, both Strategic Air Command missions; the Airborne Warning and Control System and the Manned Air Defense System, missions of concern to both the Air Defense Command and the Tactical Air Command; and the CX-4 Heavy Logistics Transport System, a mission requirement of the Military Air Transport Service. As a result of the discussions, it has been assumed that the AWAC and MADS systems would not be procured simultaneously; either one or the other would be procured, but not both, and the cost effectiveness studies are based upon this assumption.

Specific operational requirements were determined for each mission from the discussions with military personnel and official documents where possible. The specific requirements of the AAWS, PACCS, AWAC, and MADS missions are classified. Each has as a basic requirement, however, the achievement of unrefuelled airborne endurance beyond that presently available from operational equipment. In addition to long endurance certain of the missions require high altitude and high speed capability as well.

The CX-4 mission requirements are those specified in Draft #3 Specific Operational Requirements for Heavy Logistics Support Aircraft System dated 17 September 1962, as revised in discussions with MATS and Headquarters, USAF. For the basic mission of 4000 nautical miles range, the assumed payload is 135,000 pounds with a structural capability of 165,000 pounds. The cruise altitude must not be less than 30,000 feet and the cruise speed must not be less than 440 knots. At the design gross weight the required take-off distance over a 50-foot obstacle on a 89.5°F day is 8000 feet.
Also extracted from the same document:
CX-4

Gross Weight (Lb) 585,000
LFC on Wing & Tail No
Engines 4 X 34,700 lb. Thrust
Turbofans
Wing Area (Sq.Ft.) 4,640
Endurance/speed/alt. (hr/knt/ft) 15.5/400/35,000 at
672,000 lb. G.W.
 

fightingirish

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Boeing's CX-HLS Large Logistics Transport Artist Concepts
Although Boeing lost the competition for the gigantic military transport, the C-5A, Boeing took advantage of the high bypass engine technology developed for the C-5A to develop the new gigantic 747 commercial transport. The design philosophy behind the 747 was to develop a completely new plane, and other than the engines, the designers purposefully avoided using any hardware developed for the C-5.
Permalink: http://www.boeingimages.com/archive/Boeing C-5 Design Concept-2F3408E1BEF.html
Permalink: http://www.boeingimages.com/archive/CX-HLS Large Logistics Transport Artist Concept-2F3XC5KUJSR.html]http://]http://www.boeingimages.com/archive/CX-HLS Large Logistics Transport Artist Concept-2F3XC5KUJSR.html


Look like that once the passenger version of Boeing's C-5 CX-HLS would have been called "Boeing Model 757". :-\
Permalink: http://www.boeingimages.com/archive/Early Concept of the 757-2F3XC5KU425.html


Edit:
More pictures attached.

CX-HLS Transport Study
Permalink: http://www.boeingimages.com/archive/CX-HLS Transport Study-2F3XC5KU5ID.html


Three-Views of Boeing's C-5 Proposal
Permalink: http://www.boeingimages.com/archive/Three-Views of Boeing's C-5 Proposal-2F3XC5HZW9G.html
Douglas Model D-920 Military Transport Proposed for C-5 RFP
Permalink: http://www.boeingimages.com/archive/Douglas Model D-920 Military Transport Proposed for C-5 RFP-2F3XC5O45U2.html

Inside the Mock-up of Boeing's C-5 Concept
Permalink: http://www.boeingimages.com/archive/Inside the Mock-up of Boeing's C-5 Concept-2F3XC5HZGFN.html
 

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Stargazer2006

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This "757" really is a nice find, thanks! Funny how the upper deck bump seems like a detachable pod of some kind (probably something to do with the way it's drawn).
 

fightingirish

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IMHO this "Boeing Model 757" has no detachable pod.
It is just the way how the transition between main and upper deck is drawn in this image - as you can see on the front view of CX-HLS. ;)
 

Triton

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Model of Lockheed GL-194-12 concept for United States Air Force CX-X program found on eBay.

UPDATE: Model has been sold for US $1,800.00.

Seller's description:

A probable one of a kind model Aircraft produced in the Lockheed model shop in the early 1960's. The GL-194 aircraft was one of many submitted to the USAF for the CX-X project, then renamed theCX-HLS, Heavy Logistics System Project. This model comes in its original custom made pine box. The condition of the model is excellent, minus some hairline cracks on the top fuselage where the wings cross the top. The only marking is on the bottom with a piece of tape that says "GL-194-12". The material is light weight, looking in the hole in the bottom for the base it looks to be wood.

This is an extremely rare model and probably the only one in existence. This came from the estate of a Lockheed engineer several years ago.

Wingspan is about 10 1/2", length is about 10".

CX-X and Heavy Logistics System - In 1961, several aircraft companies began studying heavy jet transport designs that would replace the Douglas C-133 Cargomaster and complement Lockheed C-141 Starlifters. In addition to higher overall performance, the United States Army wanted a transport aircraft with a larger cargo bay than the C-141, whose interior was too small to carry a variety of their outsized equipment. These studies led to the "CX-4" design concept, but in 1962 the proposed six-engine design was rejected, because it was not viewed as a significant advance over the C-141.[3] By late 1963, the next conceptual design was named CX-X. It was equipped with four engines, instead of six engines in the earlier CX-4 concept. The CX-X had a gross weight of 550,000 pounds (249,000 kg), a maximum payload of 180,000 lb (81,600 kg) and a speed of Mach 0.75 (500 mph or 805 km/h). The cargo compartment was 17.2 ft (5.24 m) wide by 13.5 feet (4.11 m) high and 100 ft (30.5 m) long with front and rear access doors. To provide required power and range with only four engines required a new engine with dramatically improved fuel efficiency.
Source:
http://www.fsdownload.com/store/Lockheed-C-5-Galaxy-Project-Concept-6-Engine-Gl-194-12-Aircraft-Desk-Model_191328453274.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191328453274
 

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Triton

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Triton

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Is this model a CX-X concept or a CX-4 design concept? The seller states it is a CX-X concept while the cut-and-paste from Wikipedia would support that this is a CX-4 design concept with a six-engine configuration rejected in 1962?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Triton said:
Is this model a CX-X concept or a CX-4 design concept? The seller states it is a CX-X concept while the cut-and-paste from Wikipedia would support that this is a CX-4 design concept with a six-engine configuration rejected in 1962?

Not certain, but it isn't the Lockheed CX-4 recommended configuration (that was T-tail).


 

Triton

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PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Triton said:
Is this model a CX-X concept or a CX-4 design concept? The seller states it is a CX-X concept while the cut-and-paste from Wikipedia would support that this is a CX-4 design concept with a six-engine configuration rejected in 1962?

Not certain, but it isn't the Lockheed CX-4 recommended configuration (that was T-tail).
If Lockheed submitted a six-engine CX-4 design in December 1963, that would mean that the Wikipedia article is incorrect in its claim that six-engine configurations were rejected in 1962 based on information from a Globalsecurity article. It gets confusing where CX-4 ends and CX-X begins. Maybe it's just sufficient to identify the concept as an early 1960s Lockheed-Georgia transport concept that led to the development of the C-5?
 

Mark Nankivil

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Good Day All -

On EPay now is this Boeing CX-HLS model. I think though it is actually the Douglas D906 - take a look at the CX-HLS thread....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Vintage-Boeing-Aircraft-Prototype-US-Air-Force-MATS-Cargo-Jet-Display-Model-/221769587829?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a27f5c75

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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Triton

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Sold for $1,200.

Additional photographs.

Source:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Vintage-Boeing-Aircraft-Prototype-US-Air-Force-MATS-Cargo-Jet-Display-Model-/221769587829?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a27f5c75
 

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Pioneer

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Internal view of Boeing's CX-HLS mock up (source: Boeing).

Ah this brings back memories of my one and only trip in a C-5 Galaxy, where we played football (real football - Aussie Rules!) in its cavernous interior! I don't think the USAF Loadmaster knew what to make of us. We were having a good time drop-punting the ball backward and forwards until one of us hit the HQ Pl! I think they got upset because we knocked over their cucumber sandwiches and broke the lead in the sigs pencil! ;D

Regards
Pioneer
 

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hesham

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Hi,

a good article about CX-HLS and CX-4 is found on La Fana 3/2017.
 

hesham

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Also amazing Canard concept displayed.
 

fightingirish

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I have seen a screenshot on their Facebook page. I will post the link later after work.
Screenshot:
https://scontent-frt3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16796940_1325086007558187_6542384661882453288_o.png?oh=c7b7e0b3d517ec3e69e8099d9f136898&oe=5A2760F0
Source:
https://www.facebook.com/LeFanaDelAviationMagazine/?ref=page_internal

Edit:
Picture added.
 

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elmayerle

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Okay, how do I go about purchasing a copy of this issue from the US?
 

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Cah! So boring compared with the NBMR.4 designs in Atlas!

Chris
 

Triton

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Boeing SST/CX-HLS? concept poster found on eBay

Source:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Boeing-SST-Gordon-Phillips-USAF-Print-Poster-1970s-Original-ART-WORK/401392847378?hash=item5d74e0ca12%3Ag%3ApDUAAOSwLrNZoz6U

Vintage Boeing Gordon Phillips SST USAF Airplane Poster...Rare 1970's original PROMOTIONAL Poster...Huge size...great condition...some age wear...Rare Gordon Phillips Art Work poster for your collection
 

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sferrin

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Wouldn't that have been something. :eek:
 

Pioneer

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Nice find Triton

Isn't it a tragedy that there's no museum that specialised in the preservation and display of aviation mock ups :'(

Regards
Pioneer
 

TomcatViP

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very true... But hard. Very few company would have the historical sense to preserve something that was not build to last, takes a non-negligible space and does not display the best of company history success (per essence- otherwise museum can acquire prototypes and serial production examples ;) )
 

Orionblamblam

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Everything I've seen suggests that the great majority of companies prefer to pretend that losing designs never existed. Boeing, after all, put forward a detailed proposal for the B-1, including building a full scale mockup of at least the forward fuselage; but as soon as Rockwell was selected, the Boeing effort vanished almost entirely. The Boeing archive a decade ago had nothing more on it than a handful of glossies. The whole project simply ceased to exist.

Full scale mockups are not built to last (plywood and foam), they take up a *lot* of space, and they give away company secrets. Consequently, turning them into kindling is an easy decision for the suits.
 

Pioneer

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I hear what you are saying Orionblamblam :'(


P.S. you wouldn't have a picture(s) of the quoted Boeing
AMSA mock-up you could PM me would you?
Orionblamblam said:
Boeing, after all, put forward a detailed proposal for the B-1, including building a full scale mockup of at least the forward fuselage; but as soon as Rockwell was selected, the Boeing effort vanished almost entirely.

Regards
Pioneer
 

Mark Nankivil

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Douglas CX-HLS Model

Good Day All -

Rather impressive model: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Douglas-Aircraft-Co-1960s-Skeletal-Wood-Model-of-the-C-5-Cargo-Proposal-LARGE/302643931800?hash=item4676fbea98:g:BJcAAOSwLI1aZTMO

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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Re: Douglas CX-HLS Model

An awesome relic. The price, high as it is, may be appropriate... but who would buy this? What would they buy it for? It'd look great in a museum, but it's difficult to imagine that there are many museums that would have the floor space for something like this.
 
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