• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

CX-HLS (Cargo Experimental, Heavy Logistic Support) designs & derivatives

Antonio

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,363
Reaction score
40
Giants of the Sky by Bill Gunston
ISBN 1-85260-258-9

LOCKHEED MARTIN C-5 GALAXY: WarbirdTech 36


In 1960 the USAF launched Project Forecast which called for the world's biggest logistic transport, the CX-4, in the 600,000 lb category. It should be a jet. The only study I know comes from Douglas but I have no details about its Model Number. I guess that Boeing and Lockheed carried out its own designs.

With all the data generated under CX-4 study, the USAF launched an specification for a CX-HLS aircraft. The winner was Lockheed (C-5 Galaxy)

Douglas submitted several designs: Model D-890, D-895, D-900. According to "Giants of the Sky", the definitive design was D-916 while D-920 was the submission for the Wardbirdtech volume.

I have included to this post the D-920.

The last scan is Boeing C-5A from Giants of the Sky. Anybody knows Boeing's model number for it?
 

Attachments

TinWing

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
888
Reaction score
9
pometablava said:
Douglas submitted several designs: Model D-890, D-895, D-900. According to "Giants of the Sky", the definitive design was D-916 while D-920 was the submission for the Wardbirdtech volume.
Here is the D906 from "McDonnell Douglas Aircraft Since..."
 

Attachments

lark

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
1,783
Reaction score
7
Any one who haves the Boeing modelnumber of
the Boeing CX-HLS design ?

Thanks.
 

Schorsch

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
26
Reaction score
2
pometablava said:
In 1960 the USAF launched Project Forecast which called for the world's biggest logistic transport, the CX-4, in the 600,000 lb category. It should be a jet. The only study I know comes from Douglas but I have no details about its Model Number. I guess that Boeing and Lockheed carried out its own designs.
Are you sure about that? The CX-4 was to have 6 engines and these were low-bypass, similar to Starlifter. Lots of paper-design was made by the big three. CX-4 was discarded and CX-HLS was born with all designs of Douglas, Boeing and Lockheed similar in shape. Lockheed was chosen due to price. Boeings design used a little bit more edge-technology.
However, the pictures you have posted look more like Douglas' proposal for CX-HLS.
 

Antonio

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,363
Reaction score
40
Schorsch

This is taken directly from Bill Gunston's "Giants of the Sky":
In 1960 the USAF launched Project Forecast which called for the world's biggest logistic transport, the CX-4, in the 600,000 lb category. It should be a jet
And the pic I posted as "Douglas CX-4" came form an old magazine where it is identified as Douglas CX-4. I'll try to identify the magazine identity and get more info.

Nevertheless the aircraft in the pic has 6 engines and look similar to that on the C-141....so it match your description about the CX-4 study. ???
 

TinWing

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
888
Reaction score
9
Schorsch said:
This is the Lockheed proposal for the CX-4.
What was the "STF 200C" engine? Was this some sort of re-fanned variant of an existing engine?
 

Sentinel Chicken

American 71 Heavy, contact departure 126.47
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
575
Reaction score
1
Website
www.tailsthroughtime.com
What was the "STF 200C" engine? Was this some sort of re-fanned variant of an existing engine?
The STF200 was one of Pratt & Whitney's early demonstrators for a high-bypass ratio turbofan engine. It had a bypass ratio around 2 which is good considering that first generation of turbofan engines only had bypass ratios of around 1.2-1-4. Unfortunately for PW, though, GE made a breakthrough that gave its' TF39 a bypass ratio of 8 and a better fuel burn despite improvements to the STF200 that got its BPR up to around 3-3.5.
 

lark

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
1,783
Reaction score
7
The Douglas CX-4 which Pometablava put in this file came from :
FLIGHT Internatonal 28 November 1963 - page 853

Caption reads as follow : Douglas Proposal for the USAF CX-4 study
for a large logistics cargo transport (see " USAF Global Freighter"
column 1 )
 

TinWing

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
888
Reaction score
9
Sentinel Chicken said:
What was the "STF 200C" engine? Was this some sort of re-fanned variant of an existing engine?
The STF200 was one of Pratt & Whitney's early demonstrators for a high-bypass ratio turbofan engine. It had a bypass ratio around 2 which is good considering that first generation of turbofan engines only had bypass ratios of around 1.2-1-4. Unfortunately for PW, though, GE made a breakthrough that gave its' TF39 a bypass ratio of 8 and a better fuel burn despite improvements to the STF200 that got its BPR up to around 3-3.5.
I wonder if the STF200 was an all-new design or similar in concept to the far later refanned JT8D-200 series?

It is noteworthy that Rolls-Royce was promoting a refanned Medway in this era as well - the 22,000lb st RB177-2.

The great irony is that it took longer than expected for high bypass ratio turbofans to dominate the commercial airliner market.
 

Pioneer

Seek out and close with the enemy
Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
1,664
Reaction score
33
Does anyone have any information, drawings and specifications for Martin Marietta and General Dynamics CX-HLS (Cargo, Experimental-Heavy Logistics System), that would later be won by Lockheed with its Model 500, that would become famous as the C-5 Calaxy.

Regards
Pioneer
 

boxkite

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2006
Messages
824
Reaction score
30
This Lockheed proposal of a cargo plane for the Military Air Transport Service of the USAF was released in "Der Flieger" number 1/1966 (page 7). Mistakenly the author of the caption described the aircraft as a future space ??? transport aircraft, but I hope he didn't make a mistake regarding Lockheed as the home of this design.

Any idea about the background of this layout (model number etc.)?
 

Attachments

TinWing

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
888
Reaction score
9
boxkite said:
This Lockheed proposal of a cargo plane for the Military Air Transport Service of the USAF was released in "Der Flieger" number 1/1966 (page 7). Mistakenly the author of the caption described the aircraft as a future space ??? transport aircraft, but I hope he didn't make a mistake regarding Lockheed as the home of this design.

Any idea about the background of this layout (model number etc.)?
1. This is indeed a Lockheed design. The big question is whether or not it was a Skunkworks project?

2. By 1966, this design was over 5 years old.

3. This isn't a "space transport," but I also have a hard time believing that the transport of cargo was intended as the primary role in 1961.
 

TinWing

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
888
Reaction score
9
1. This proposal dates from 1961, the right date for the SLAB program.

2. The SLAB requirement apparently was for a 500,000lb MTOW aircraft. In my estimation, this drawing depicts a large aircraft.

3. Boxkite, please don't take offense at my renaming of your thread.
 

TinWing

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
888
Reaction score
9
Here is a 1961 patent drawing from a perspective similar to the 1966 illustration.

I think I see a cargo door, but it seems to be very small in proportion to the rest of this big airplane.
 

Attachments

elmayerle

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
1,251
Reaction score
8
The funny thing is, this isn't that far off from some of the "lambda-wing" studies that the AIAA Case History of the C-5 shows that Lockheed studied as part of that design evolution. It might be a cargo plane at that.
 

TinWing

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
888
Reaction score
9
elmayerle said:
The funny thing is, this isn't that far off from some of the "lambda-wing" studies that the AIAA Case History of the C-5 shows that Lockheed studied as part of that design evolution. It might be a cargo plane at that.
Hmm?

"Lambda-wing?"
 

Archibald

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
2,373
Reaction score
153
Hello! As this is the thread of "secrets and unbuild 747s" I have a question for you.
We all know that the 747 was, at the beginning, a competitor to the C-5 Galaxy (I'll be glad to see douglas entry on this competition... was it something similar to the DC-10 ?)
Well, is there any pic of the 747 at that time (circa 1965 ?)
was it very different from the actual jumbo-jet ?

Thanks in advance!
 

frank

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
617
Reaction score
4
IIRC, the Boeing C-5 entry looked like a high wing 747. One of Douglas' entries looked similar to the Antonov An-124, IIRC, with 6 engines.


Archibald said:
Hello! As this is the thread of "secrets and unbuild 747s" I have a question for you.
We all know that the 747 was, at the beginning, a competitor to the C-5 Galaxy (I'll be glad to see douglas entry on this competition... was it something similar to the DC-10 ?)
Well, is there any pic of the 747 at that time (circa 1965 ?)
was it very different from the actual jumbo-jet ?

Thanks in advance!
 

Archibald

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
2,373
Reaction score
153
Thank you very much, but I need a pic or a 3-view of the Boeing entry :)
 

flateric

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
8,779
Reaction score
200
Boeing CX-HLS entry, initially posted by Pometablava
The second ilustration of Boeing CX-HLS is from highly recommended Bill Norton's Lockheed C-5 Galaxy (Warbirdtech series Vol.36)
 

Attachments

boxkite

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2006
Messages
824
Reaction score
30
Sorry, Pioneer, no Martin Marietta or GD CX-HLS proposals, but one by Burnelli. The simple sketch was published on The Burnelli Web Site (www.communique.com/burnelli/ resp. www.hit.fi/~vzvirbly/burnelli/) and labelled May 1964 - ITEL-BURNELLI CONCEPTUAL PROPOSAL CX-HLS LOGISTICS TRANSPORT.
 

Attachments

Pioneer

Seek out and close with the enemy
Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
1,664
Reaction score
33
Hay thanks Boxkite, for thinking of me!

Yes the Martin Marietta & General Dynamics proposals is a hard one to find.

But the Burnelli design proposal, I have never heard of before!
Great find my friend!

I will try and find more on this design

P.S I had no luck with that web site you posted Boxkite. Did it have any tech data for the proposal ??????


Regards
Pioneer
 

boxkite

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2006
Messages
824
Reaction score
30
Sorry, Pioneer, I've only downloaded this (and other) pictures from the website in January 1999. Unfortunately, the link doesn't work in recent days. Does anybody know if the URL changed?

Maybe Jens can find more details while he is digging through his Flying Review treasure ;).
 

lark

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
1,783
Reaction score
7
The 2e illustration from Flying Review depicts the Burnelli CB-7
one of the early fifties designs.(already discussed in the former thread)
Burnelli claimed a speed of 500 mph and it could also
be configured to hold a cargo container of 20ft long,10ft wide
and 7.6 ft high

I found no information about Burnelli contenders for the C-130 and C-5A competition.
nor for the
 

Skybolt

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
2,296
Reaction score
26
I found no information about Burnelli contenders for the C-130
Yes Paul, it wasn't from Burnelli directly but from Airlifts Co, which purchased rights on some Burnelli's design. 50's US military cargo competions deserve some FOIAs, but the interest of the general public is low... :( Think of the C-127...
 

lark

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
1,783
Reaction score
7
Yes indeed Sky.. , for one or an other reason
the Burnelli's and other 50's cargo plane project
do not arrive on the scene...
 

boxkite

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2006
Messages
824
Reaction score
30
Another artwork of the (early) six-engined Douglas CX-4 from aero April 1964.

A few parameters:

MTOW : 272,000 kg
volume of the cargo hold : 784 m³
cruise speed : 805 km/h
payload : 45,300 kg (over a distance of 10,140 km)
 

Attachments

lark

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
1,783
Reaction score
7
Douglas model D-906 was their six engined contender under the generic CX-4 designation.
( Experimental Cargo-Heavy Logistics Support)
Douglas model D-920 was the contender in the C-5 competition.

source :Mc Donnell Douglas Aircraft since 1920.René J.Francillon. Putnam.

Boeing design number in the C-5 competition never found.. ???
 

flateric

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
8,779
Reaction score
200
Lockheed CX-HLS with lambda wing


"Several configuration alternatives were reinvestigated in some detail for the CX- HLS, one of which was the lambda wing, shown <...> The lambda wing offered excellent potential for high speed cruise Mach numbers, up to M=0.9. But the requirements were narrowing to M=0.767, so the configuration was not pursued further because it was judged 5% more expensive.
There was also a study of a straight wing design and a modified straight wing, called the bat wing. The results of the assessment are shown in Table A5-1. The 2% improvement in 10-year system costs was not sufficient to sway the decision from the baseline."

Chadwick, C.A., The Design and Development of the C-5A, AIAA Case Study series, Dec 1970.
 

Attachments

flateric

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
8,779
Reaction score
200
Lockheed LGX-160 - heavy C-5A follow-on studied together with L500 (civil derivative of C-5A)

"..cruises at Mach number above 0.85, and carries 300,000 pound of payload. The performance
of this design was verified in high speed wind tunnel tests.
The dimensions are generally similar to those of the L500.
C-5 is the lightest of the three aircrafts, weighing 732,500 pounds, compared
to 833,200 for L500, and 940,000 for the ."

THE DESIGN OF LARGE SUBSONIC CARGO ALRCRAFT
by
ROBERT B. ORMSBY, JR.
Lockheed-Georgia Company
Marietta, Georgia
AlAA Paper
NO. 68-1019
 

Attachments

flateric

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
8,779
Reaction score
200
They have met finally. 'SLAB' seems to be one of CX-HLS iterations. Formally, it would become C-5 one day.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,219.msg16824.html#msg16824
 

Attachments

flateric

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
8,779
Reaction score
200
Lockheed LGA-144 (originally posted by Dronte)

Lockheed LGA-144, ' 80 project .Kind of a Super Galaxy with a longitude of 88 meters and able to load 180 tons (source: magazine of scientific popularization "Muy Interesante" May 1986)
 

Attachments

jackehammond

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
lark said:
The 2e illustration from Flying Review depicts the Burnelli CB-7
one of the early fifties designs.(already discussed in the former thread)
Burnelli claimed a speed of 500 mph and it could also
be configured to hold a cargo container of 20ft long,10ft wide
and 7.6 ft high

I found no information about Burnelli contenders for the C-130 and C-5A competition.
nor for the
Dear Members,

Off topic, but in early 1941 a Canadian aircraft firm (of all things I remember it has "Foundry" in its name) offered a super-long range bomber based on Burnelli aircraft concept that could fly from North America and bomb Germany!

Jack E. Hammond
 
Top