CX-HLS (Cargo Experimental, Heavy Logistic Support) designs & derivatives

[Apophenia]

... a Canadian aircraft firm (of all things I remember it has "Foundry" in its name) offered a super-long range bomber based on Burnelli aircraft concept ...

That would be the Canadian Car&Foundry B-2000B.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=da302984a75066a70bb923add62dd39a&topic=340.0

 

[Skybolt]

This is the Douglas CX-HLS submission tested by Langley in 1965 on behalf of the Pentagon with the other two finalists. Should be final, and rather different from the D-920 pictures normally published. All dimensions are in centimeters, model scale was circa 1:44/1:45.
Original report here http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19670021725 Photo of the model comes from the NASA publication "Partners in Freedom" on the involvement of NASA in major US military programs.

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

I should note that the Boeing CX-HLS has little to do with the later built B-747. The JT9D, though, to my knowledge was actually the loser in the CX-HLS program (engines). The reason it ended up powering the 747 was because it was better suited for the higher-speed requirements Pan Am requested from Boeing (Mach 0.88 cruise) than the TF-39 (who's 8:1 bypass ratio makes it difficult to achieve).

When Boeing began it's early design studies for what would become the B-747, they initially used double-decker proposals of 707 width. To my knowledge they may have widened one of the decks a bit and moved the wings from the top to the middle to the bottom along the way. Joe Sutter, the project leader decided against it.

With the SST program still going strong, they felt that the B-747 would work okay at first, but then would quickly be replaced by SST's especially on domestic routes. They felt the B-747, especially on domestic routes would end up being a just a freighter. So they designed the airplane in such a way that it could be quickly configured into a freighter.

They designed the airplane with a wide-circular fuselage that could fit two 8-foot wide cargo pallets side by side. While they had considered swing-tailed designs, and hinged noses to allow cargo to be loaded straight in through the front, the latter was the choice they ultimately went with. The cockpit was placed above and behind the hinge-line, and was aerodynamically blended and faired into the fuselage.


KJ Lesnick

 

[Skybolt]

Yep, and the responsible for the large section idea was Juan Trippe...

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

Was he responsible for the cross-section alone? Or the whole idea of it being configured as a freighter?

KJ_Lesnick

 

[Skybolt]

The story goes that the exact dimensions of the cross section were dictated by the desire of Juan Trippe of storing two rows of standard containers. BTW, the story continues, the elevated cockpit was meant to keep the pilots out of the way from the containers accidentally set free from restrains during a dive.

 

[flateric]

Lockheed lambda wing CX-HLS design patent
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPATD196343

 

[flateric]

In-house Douglas D-920 art (Airpower, January 2002)

 

[Pioneer]

Nice find on the artist work of the Douglas D920!

Thanks

Regards
Pioneer

 

[starviking]

In-house Douglas D-920 art (Airpower, January 2002)

Interesting front cargo door concept!

 

[Orionblamblam]

In-house Douglas D-920 art (Airpower, January 2002)

And now in living color!

 

[flateric]

Scott, thank you, it's much better now!

 

[Maveric]

Hi all,

found the competitor for the Lockheed C.5 "Galaxy" - the Boeing C-5A/CX-HLS. I have only this pic and the dimensions.
Sp 215ft, L 230,83ft and H 68,25ft. If you have a good 3view please post it. Anybody of you know the Boeing Model-number?

Thanks and Servus

Maveric

 

[Maveric]

...sorry (Source: Warbird Tech 36).

 

[flateric]

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,535.msg1426.html#msg1426

There also never was 'Lockheed C.5'. There was Lockheed C-5A=)

 

[Maveric]

Thanks flatric, also for the link... B)
...only the Model-number?

 

[Artie Bob]

IIRC, there was also a Douglas competitor and a pretty large scale model was on display at the Douglas museum in Santa Monica in the late 80s.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

 

[Apophenia]

Douglas competitor

Image of the Douglas D-920 here (as well as a 3-view of the Boeing design)

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,535.0/

 

[blackstar]

Interesting info. Also demonstrates that the 747 was not Boeing's initial design for the C-5 contract. This recent book on the 747 is very readable and provides a lot of insight into the 747 development, including how it got that distinctive hump.

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

Blackstar,

That's right

 

[Skybolt]

Ah, the development history of the 747 is much complex. In its early stages there were configurations similar to the CX-HLS. What at last was left were the hi-bypass large thrust engines and the structural solutions.

 

[MIRAGE 4000]

Do you know the Nord 6000 ?

Found in archives a Nord Aviation giant transport project (1967/1968).
Longitudinal lobes forming side by side compartments (as the Nord 600).
See in 2009 in famous French aviation magazine !!! ;D

 

[toura]

I Mirage 4000
Yes I know, four engines round the tail, two each side
one on the other. Very large, flat fuselage but I have any
carachteristic. If you have ...I thank you

 

[Skybolt]

A schematics of the work breakdown for the Douglas CX-HLS. Seems to substantiate the fact that the final submission had a rather arretrated cockpit, like in the model tunnel tested at Langley I myself posted sometime ago, probably to allow an easier opening of the nose. Source AW&ST April 26th 1965. Sorry for the poor quality, I'm working from a photocopy.

 

[Orionblamblam]

One small, very small, result of a contracted search: info on the General Dynamics CX-HLS design studies. Attached below is one of the least interesting and least detailed of the many design drawings.

 

[circle-5]

Model comparison of the final Boeing C-5 design (the one the Air Force wanted) and the Lockheed C-5 (the one they got).

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Some nice models you got there. The Boeing design looks quite 747-ish. What is the scale? Must be quite impressive to see in real life.

 

[circle-5]

Thank you. Both are 1/100 scale. The Lockheed model is from Pacific Miniatures and the Boeing model is from their in-house model shop. I'm sure the 747 directly benefited from the large airframe engineering work that Boeing put into in the C-5 proposal -- hence the similarities.

 

[Triton]

Great thread! Nice that the urban legend that the Boeing 747 was originally Boeing's candidate for the C-5A has been debunked.

 

[Antonio]

the urban legend that the Boeing 747 was originally Boeing's candidate for the C-5A

That's interesting, never heard about that legend.


Circle-5, thanks a lot for the pic. It's wonderful to see both contenders togheter to compare Boeing vs Lockheed approach. Boeing's design looks amazing in MATS colours.

 

[circle-5]

Here's another view of the CX-HLS finalists.

 

[flateric]

exciting stuff on CX-HLS contenders goes from number of altruists recently here, thank you all for sharing!

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Martin W. Bowman's Crowood book on the 747 notes that about 100 engineers moved from the Boeing CX-HLS to the Boeing 747 including Rowland E. Brown, head of the configuration group. The design was not really based on their failed CX-HLS bid, but Boeing did design the 747 to accomodate cargo from the start as they imagined SSTs would replace them for passenger flights and existing 747s would be largely converted to freighters.

The book has pictures of an alternative double decker 747 design and another where the flight deck is below the passenger deck, giving a curious beaky nose profile.

 

[LowObservable]

Mommy?

I don't for a moment think that there was any hankypankyski involved, but it's interesting that wing size/sweep/tail design all look more like the Boeing design than the C-5.

 

[robunos]

pictures of an alternative double decker 747 design and another where the flight deck is below the passenger deck, giving a curious beaky nose profile

The one with the low-level flight deck was known as the 'Anteater', see 'Giants of the Sky', page 279. Double deckers shown in the same picture.

While you have the book open, development of the 747 fuselage cross-section on page 278, Boeing CX-HLS design 3-view on page 273, and Douglas D-916 drawing on page 271, enjoy.

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Greetings All -

Some more artwork of the Douglas D-920 courtesy of the Greater St. Louis Air & Space Museum collection.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Stargazer]

Splendid. Mark, as usual, you are the top!

 

[Caravellarella]

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French announcing the C-5A Programme. The artist's impression is wrongly captioned as the Lockheed C-5A. The picture showing the model with the full scale mock-up behind shows a different-looking Boeing proposal with a longer, more pointed nose-visor and a more bulbous upper-deck cockpit......

The article comes from the 15th January 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Triton]

Model of Douglas D-920 part of the Sir George Cox Collection.

Source:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3825.msg30322.html#msg30322

 

[circle-5]

The rapid evolution of USAF transport proposals on the path to CX-HLS led to a multiplicity of designs that gets confusing to me. The attached Douglas factory model could represent either the D-902/6 or the D-906C. Does anyone know for sure?