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CAC Postwar Projects

overscan (PaulMM)

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HSA's Hawk went from private venture studies in 1968 to an AST in early 1970, initial contract in 1971 and then March 1972. Prototype flew on 21 August 1974 and entered service in late 1976.

CAC had much less experience than Hawker Siddeley, and the CAC-31 was technically much more ambitious. Can't see it taking less time that the Hawk.

CA-31 studies were from 1965, submitted in 1966 to a requirement, but even given a contract in 1967 I'd guess first flight would probably no earlier than 1974 and service entry 1978?
 

Pioneer

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Thank's for your analysis Paul!


Regards
Pioneer
 

Abraham Gubler

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I only saw one file on the CA-23 at the Melbourne office of the National Archives of Australia. Unfortunately I missed the "Appreciation of Fighter CA 23 [1952]" from the private papers of H.P. Breen. The rest are in Canberra, including the very interesting looking Cabinet paper "Production of two prototypes of a long range all weather attack fighter aircraft CA 23 : Agendum Number - 129/1953 and Attachment : Date of Meeting - 20 August 1953". Which at two folios thick could be a gold mine. Alas this means I'll have to make a visit to our nation's capital.

I've data captured the 'Low speed wind tunnel investigation on the CA-23, a twin seat all weather fighter aircraft', D A Lemaire. This report details effects of various adjustments to the wing planform, flap size, with or without tails, dive brakes, etc. Primary purpose of these tests, carried out in Feb to Aug of 1951, were to explore the low tailplane position. Original position was a high T-tail, then to a position below the fin and both were destabilising.
 

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hesham

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Amazing find Abraham.
 

GTX

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Flying Sorcerer said:
Anyone have any esimated performance specs for the CA-23?
According to "Australian Military Experimental and Prototype Aircraft" by Raymond Deeb, max speed of Mach 1.5 (1,593 km/h) and service ceiling of 47,500 ft (50,500 ft).
 

TsrJoe

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Whats the book Greg ? worth picking up for project drawings etc.? Iv been after decent ga drawings (or confirmed dimensions) of the CA.23 for years :)

cheers, Joe
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Abraham Gubler said:
I only saw one file on the CA-23 at the Melbourne office of the National Archives of Australia. Unfortunately I missed the "Appreciation of Fighter CA 23 [1952]" from the private papers of H.P. Breen. The rest are in Canberra, including the very interesting looking Cabinet paper "Production of two prototypes of a long range all weather attack fighter aircraft CA 23 : Agendum Number - 129/1953 and Attachment : Date of Meeting - 20 August 1953". Which at two folios thick could be a gold mine. Alas this means I'll have to make a visit to our nation's capital.

I've data captured the 'Low speed wind tunnel investigation on the CA-23, a twin seat all weather fighter aircraft', D A Lemaire. This report details effects of various adjustments to the wing planform, flap size, with or without tails, dive brakes, etc. Primary purpose of these tests, carried out in Feb to Aug of 1951, were to explore the low tailplane position. Original position was a high T-tail, then to a position below the fin and both were destabilising.
Looks a lot like British reports of that era, though the typo in "Resticted" is funny.
 

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TsrJoe said:
Whats the book Greg ? worth picking up for project drawings etc.? Iv been after decent ga drawings (or confirmed dimensions) of the CA.23 for years :)

cheers, Joe
Once I get my hands on a copy I will let you know.
 

GTX

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Is anyone able to find a copy of the following:

Title Australian Military Experimental and Prototype Aircraft
Author Raymond Deeb
Publisher Lulu Enterprises Incorporated, 2006
ISBN 1411648900, 9781411648906
Length 47 pages


Title Military Aircraft, Designed and Built in Australia
Author Raymond Deeb
Publisher Lulu Enterprises Incorporated, 2006
ISBN 141165174X, 9781411651746
Length 53 pages
 

TsrJoe

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Hmm, checking online they seem to be compilation volumes of 'wiki' pages :(
 

GTX

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TsrJoe said:
Hmm, checking online they seem to be compilation volumes of 'wiki' pages :(
Bugger! And yet, wiki also references them...what's going on with that?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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GTX said:
TsrJoe said:
Hmm, checking online they seem to be compilation volumes of 'wiki' pages :(
Bugger! And yet, wiki also references them...what's going on with that?
I've seen plenty of circular references on Wikipedia.

Generally it goes - Wikipedia has info referenced to a slightly dubious source. Some more reputable source (say, the BBC or CNN, or a published author) uses Wikipedia without attribution and publishes the same information. Someone then edits Wikipedia to refer to the more 'authoritative' source. Then imagine if the guy printing infoboards for an airshow uses Wikipedia to get the specs of the plane....

This happened with the PAK-FA article on Wikipedia for instance.
 

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GTX said:
Is anyone able to find a copy of the following:

Title Australian Military Experimental and Prototype Aircraft
Author Raymond Deeb
Publisher Lulu Enterprises Incorporated, 2006
ISBN 1411648900, 9781411648906
Length 47 pages


Title Military Aircraft, Designed and Built in Australia
Author Raymond Deeb
Publisher Lulu Enterprises Incorporated, 2006
ISBN 141165174X, 9781411651746
Length 53 pages
Well I know an author with that name published a book on the Australian cruiser tank, it is comically bad, with bits of text cut and pasted from the web. Perth military modelling has a review of it. I'd expect more of the same for those two.
 

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Flying Sorcerer said:
Anyone have any esimated performance specs for the CA-23?
Going back to this question and citing a more reliable source ("Wirraway to Hornet : A history of the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation Pty Ltd, 1936 to 1985" by Brian L. Hill), the max speed was designed to be Mach 1.5 and service ceiling of 51,000ft with a rate of climb of 17,000 fpm.
 

Flying Sorcerer

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Thanks. Any idea what it's range would have been? I have to wonder if a collaborative project between Canada and Oz might have been worthwhile.
 

GTX

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No idea sorry.

Something that may be worth trying to find though: RAAF Historical Section - History of the CA-23 Twin Seat All-Weather Fighter

Saw reference to it here
 

Apophenia

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Since a De Havilland (Australia) project has also been mentioned in this thread, I'll ask here ...

Does anyone have any details on the unbuilt ADH-2 project? This was to have been a single engine, twin-seat monoplane trainer or general aviation type. Design work was done under Martin Warner (whose contemporary ADH-3 Dragon replacement was built as the DHA-3 Drover).

I have no date other than "post-war". But Martin Warner died at the young age of 45 in November 1954 ... so sometime before that.
 
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hesham

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That's new Info for me my dear Apophenia,

and I think you meant DHA-3 Drover,and there was also an executive Project of 1958 and when it
became Hawker de Havilland,the prefix changed into HDH,such as HDH-10 & DHD-11.
 

Apophenia

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I did indeed hesham ... thanks for the correction. It was your Reply #60 that first brought me here. The ADH-2 would have been at least four years earlier than your executive aircraft design. I wonder what type of designation that four-five seater had?
 

hesham

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Yes my dear Apophenia,

we know from DHA-4 to DHA-9 are missing,so maybe they repeated or developed the ADH-2 into new
designation ?.
 

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Petrus

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Here is a drawing (very small and quite unclear) of a CAC night-fighter project. The drawing, which I downloaded from http://jet-flight.net/ca23.html (the site does not exist anymore), has been already posted here by Hesham. It shows a project apparently earlier than the CA-23 and quite a different than that (it has shoulder-mounted swept wings rather than delta-like wings and so on).

The article "From Fisherman's Bend. CAC Projects, Proposals and Concepts" by J. Vella ("Air Enthusiast" issue 3 of 1996) briefly mentions the P196 project (cut-out attached below). Its description matches, in my opinion at least, what is shown in the drawing.

Perhaps anyone here has more on that project (or a better/bigger/clearer version of the drawing)?

BR
Piotr
 

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hesham

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Gordon332

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has been already posted here by Hesham
My dear Petrus,

I think I have a large drawing to it,but I can't find it now;

Hello, I author the tamamshud blog and recall doing a fair amount of research around the CA 23 some years ago. The research was mostly political, at the time that the CA23 was on the drawing board, Australia was in turmoil with communist infiltration at the highest levels in Government. Somewhere there was a mock up photograph of several aircraft which I believe were indeed models. I will see what I can find and post here. The source for the information was a Russian website: http://alternathistory.com/proekt-t...wealth-aircraft-corporation-ca-23-avstraliya/

Google Translate does a reasonable job.

Found it: 1594252962427.png
 
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uncle les

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has been already posted here by Hesham
My dear Petrus,

I think I have a large drawing to it,but I can't find it now;

Hello, I author the tamamshud blog and recall doing a fair amount of research around the CA 23 some years ago. The research was mostly political, at the time that the CA23 was on the drawing board, Australia was in turmoil with communist infiltration at the highest levels in Government. Somewhere there was a mock up photograph of several aircraft which I believe were indeed models. I will see what I can find and post here. The source for the information was a Russian website: http://alternathistory.com/proekt-t...wealth-aircraft-corporation-ca-23-avstraliya/

Google Translate does a reasonable job.

Found it: View attachment 636969
That was the cover art for my ancient 1/72 kit. Here's some more from the same batch:




..and back when we had actual comps....

 

Gordon332

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Uncle Jes, thanks for those pics, it completes the picture so to speak.

My interest I guess is more focused on the political and intelligence scene at the time. There were concerns and rumours that there were cells operating at Fishermans Bend and at Government level in Canberra. It piqued my interest when I saw the Russian website article dated 2014 and mention was made that one of the contributors had found the information and drawings via Google. That surprised me a little, I was unable to find much at all around that time. Hesham, if you're reading this I see you mentioned the CA 23 way back in 2007. Was there much available at that time? I am just wondering how someone in Russia had the information in 2014 although it would tie in with the rumours I suppose.

has been already posted here by Hesham
My dear Petrus,

I think I have a large drawing to it,but I can't find it now;

Hello, I author the tamamshud blog and recall doing a fair amount of research around the CA 23 some years ago. The research was mostly political, at the time that the CA23 was on the drawing board, Australia was in turmoil with communist infiltration at the highest levels in Government. Somewhere there was a mock up photograph of several aircraft which I believe were indeed models. I will see what I can find and post here. The source for the information was a Russian website: http://alternathistory.com/proekt-t...wealth-aircraft-corporation-ca-23-avstraliya/

Google Translate does a reasonable job.

Found it: View attachment 636969
That was the cover art for my ancient 1/72 kit. Here's some more from the same batch:




..and back when we had actual comps....

 

Archibald

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Thanks. Any idea what it's range would have been? I have to wonder if a collaborative project between Canada and Oz might have been worthwhile.
Indeed. A cross between CA.23 and CF-100 would be completely awesome. But that's for the alternate history section of this forum...
 

Archibald

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This thread has so much interesting stuff...
 

Wondera1234

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Got a bit of a Jack pot on dimensions and development of the CAC CA-23
It also has the original proposal, I might have to folk over some $ to get some of the other reports published.
It has (MOS) British Ministry of Supply analysis. Looks like they were keen on killing the project, the Brits always wanted Australia to be another client state
for their production.
 

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Wondera1234

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I only saw one file on the CA-23 at the Melbourne office of the National Archives of Australia. Unfortunately I missed the "Appreciation of Fighter CA 23 [1952]" from the private papers of H.P. Breen. The rest are in Canberra, including the very interesting looking Cabinet paper "Production of two prototypes of a long range all weather attack fighter aircraft CA 23 : Agendum Number - 129/1953 and Attachment : Date of Meeting - 20 August 1953". Which at two folios thick could be a gold mine. Alas this means I'll have to make a visit to our nation's capital.

I've data captured the 'Low speed wind tunnel investigation on the CA-23, a twin seat all weather fighter aircraft', D A Lemaire. This report details effects of various adjustments to the wing planform, flap size, with or without tails, dive brakes, etc. Primary purpose of these tests, carried out in Feb to Aug of 1951, were to explore the low tailplane position. Original position was a high T-tail, then to a position below the fin and both were destabilising.
The file with the Appreciation of fighter CA23 is now open
I was wondering weather their were any more notes in the Low speed wind tunnel tests? especially the wings. The original proposal layout reminds me of a RN Sicmatar
1602988325971.png
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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I only saw one file on the CA-23 at the Melbourne office of the National Archives of Australia. Unfortunately I missed the "Appreciation of Fighter CA 23 [1952]" from the private papers of H.P. Breen. The rest are in Canberra, including the very interesting looking Cabinet paper "Production of two prototypes of a long range all weather attack fighter aircraft CA 23 : Agendum Number - 129/1953 and Attachment : Date of Meeting - 20 August 1953". Which at two folios thick could be a gold mine. Alas this means I'll have to make a visit to our nation's capital.

I've data captured the 'Low speed wind tunnel investigation on the CA-23, a twin seat all weather fighter aircraft', D A Lemaire. This report details effects of various adjustments to the wing planform, flap size, with or without tails, dive brakes, etc. Primary purpose of these tests, carried out in Feb to Aug of 1951, were to explore the low tailplane position. Original position was a high T-tail, then to a position below the fin and both were destabilising.
The file with the Appreciation of fighter CA23 is now open
I was wondering weather their were any more notes in the Low speed wind tunnel tests? especially the wings. The original proposal layout reminds me of a RN Sicmatar
View attachment 642534
Great find! I've downloaded all pages (229) and am making a PDF.
 

Wondera1234

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I only saw one file on the CA-23 at the Melbourne office of the National Archives of Australia. Unfortunately I missed the "Appreciation of Fighter CA 23 [1952]" from the private papers of H.P. Breen. The rest are in Canberra, including the very interesting looking Cabinet paper "Production of two prototypes of a long range all weather attack fighter aircraft CA 23 : Agendum Number - 129/1953 and Attachment : Date of Meeting - 20 August 1953". Which at two folios thick could be a gold mine. Alas this means I'll have to make a visit to our nation's capital.

I've data captured the 'Low speed wind tunnel investigation on the CA-23, a twin seat all weather fighter aircraft', D A Lemaire. This report details effects of various adjustments to the wing planform, flap size, with or without tails, dive brakes, etc. Primary purpose of these tests, carried out in Feb to Aug of 1951, were to explore the low tailplane position. Original position was a high T-tail, then to a position below the fin and both were destabilising.
The file with the Appreciation of fighter CA23 is now open
I was wondering weather their were any more notes in the Low speed wind tunnel tests? especially the wings. The original proposal layout reminds me of a RN Sicmatar
View attachment 642534
Great find! I've downloaded all pages (229) and am making a PDF.
I'm interested in what they term a relay radar, originally it was meant to be one of the early AI radars. It seems however that the were attempting to use a smaller system to reduce the size of the radar housing. From what I could gather it would be like using ground based radar to track intercepts and the onboard radar to target. Hopefully I'll get some more info on that soonish.
 
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