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British Manned Spacecraft

Grif

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I believe the flying saucer to be one seriously suggested by a british aerodynamicist named, I think, Hilton - he quoted Puck in saying "I'll put a girdle round the Earth in forty minutes" or something like that! It's mentioned, I think, in Leonard Cramp's "Piece For A Jigsaw", a flying saucer book. I'll look it up and report back.
Grif
 

flateric

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Oh, my! 'Manned Lunar Capsule'
 

Michel Van

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almost was the union jack on moon
but british politic, you know...

Thanks for PDF, TsrJoe
 

archipeppe

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It's interesting the note about "Mercury-like" manned capsule, it was a similiar project or really British Government wanted to purchase some Mercury capsules by McDonnell, in order to launch its astronauts??
 

Avimimus

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Michel Van said:
almost was the union jack on moon
but british politic, you know...

Thanks for PDF, TsrJoe

Why do think there's artifacts on the lunar photographs?

Long live the BNA!? :p
 

fredgell

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The circular design would seem to represent one proposed, as suggested above, by Dr W F Hilton at a Cranfield symposium in 1957.

The middle design appears to represent some of the 2 years of follow on work at Armstrong Whitworth into re-entry vehicles.

There is a brief comment to this effect on page 66 Flight 1959 Missiles and Space Flight - London Conferences.

Regards

Fred
 

Barrington Bond

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Can you believe it I had the answer to the circular one in my collection of "The Aeroplane" all along :D

From The Aeroplane and Astronautics 28 August 1959.
 

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Barrington Bond

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From Ron Miller's The Dream Machines a throway line with no drawings but could it be referring to the middle picture?

"1958: The British Study a rounded delta orbiter similar to Dyna-Soar."

Regards,
Barry
 

Barrington Bond

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From British Interplanetary Society Journal - sorry date didn't appear on copy but very early sixties.
 

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Michel Van

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cool
thanks Barrington
that Black knight stage with new tank design
must be this (on top is a satellite proposal)
index.php


intresting the capsule shape look more like Soyuz that a mercury
 

archipeppe

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Really cool Barrington!!

BTW the capsule itself seems to be very similiar to a Soyuz RM with its "headlight" shape.
Anyway what is the lower part frustum-shaped?
A service module?
A simple retropack for engines?
A rocket stage adapter?

Thanks for this interesting image.
 

Michel Van

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archipeppe said:
Really cool Barrington!!

BTW the capsule itself seems to be very similar to a Soyuz RM with its "headlight" shape.
Anyway what is the lower part frustum-shaped?
A service module?
A simple retropack for engines?
A rocket stage adapter?

Thanks for this interesting image.

if they use the spherical tank design for Black Knight upperstage
(see my post with picture "Abb. 1C")
then this frustum or cone shape part, is a adapter form second stage to capsule

can it be that second stage is used as service module ?
 

Spark

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Michel Van said:
archipeppe said:
Really cool Barrington!!

BTW the capsule itself seems to be very similar to a Soyuz RM with its "headlight" shape.
Anyway what is the lower part frustum-shaped?
A service module?
A simple retropack for engines?
A rocket stage adapter?

Thanks for this interesting image.

if they use the spherical tank design for Black Knight upperstage
(see my post with picture "Abb. 1C")
then this frustum or cone shape part, is a adapter form second stage to capsule

can it be that second stage is used as service module ?


Hi,

Very interesting!


I do not know, but

I have seen drawings of a "plug nozzle" fitted to the standard Blue Streak in place of the RZ12 and read of similar for Black Knight or a Black Knight Upper Stage?

A combined capsule and " plug nozzle" upperstage re-entry craft?


If its 14ft diameter it would also fit the larger manrated SLV but that would cater for a much larger payload?
 

Barrington Bond

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I've no idea how kosher that design is!

Regards,
Barry

This is their NASA Nova capsule design from the same article...
 

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Barrington Bond

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From English slang dictionary:

"kosher Adj. Correct, legitimate. [Yiddish] {Informal} "

I couldn't say if that was dreamed up by a BIS member or that it might be close to actual secret designs...

Regards,
Barry
 

Michel Van

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found another Lifting Body from 1965

British Aircraft Corporation - EAG.4413
based on P.55 Lifting body studies
Manned version
17600 lb (7983 kg) with Booster 178400 lb (80920 kg)

several launch scenario
EAG.4413 Two stage rocket, the Lifting Body is second stage
EAG.4409 Launch EAG.4413 from B-58 like Aircraft at Mach 2
EAG.4412 Launch EAG.4413from Aircraft at Mach 0.9
EAG.4435 launch only the Lifting Body
EAG.4396 Launch EAG.4413 from Aircraft at Mach 4

Source: British Secrets Projects: Hypersonic, Ramjets & Missles
by Chris Gibson & Tony Buttler
ISBN 978-1-185780-258-0

has someone Picture of EAG.4413?
 

Michel Van

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upps i over look that :-[

index.php

EAG.4413 Two stage rocket, the Lifting Body is second stage

index.php

EAG.4396 Launch EAG.4413 from Aircraft at Mach 4
 

Barrington Bond

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Back to the beginning of this topic - have discovered that all 3 are Armstrong-Whitworth designs.

Regards,
Barry
 

Barrington Bond

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Dr W. F. Hilton (Armstrong Whitworth) astonished the assembly with his novel idea of an inverted “flying saucer” for re-entering the Earth’s atmosphere at Mach 34. This, he explained, would confine the heating effects to one side of the vehicle, ensure that the pilot’s canopy would be protected externally by an absolute vacuum, and provide the negative lift and drag needed to convert a parabolic approach path of 7 miles/sec into a braking ellipse of 5 miles/sec.

High Altitude and Satellite Rocket Symposium, Cranfield July 1957.

Regards,
Barry
 

Michel Van

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THX again for Information Barrington Bond

look like Dr W. F. Hilton made a Lenticular Vehicles
but how was it's final landing sequence, gliding down a runway or parachute into ocean ?
 

pathology_doc

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Grif said:
I believe the flying saucer to be one seriously suggested by a british aerodynamicist named, I think, Hilton - he quoted Puck in saying "I'll put a girdle round the Earth in forty minutes" or something like that!

IIRC, the character John Savage in "Brave New World" attributes this capability to Ariel. Having actually acted in the relevant play, I'm pretty sure it's Puck.

A hypothetical could-have-been split: Avro and Handley-Page to heavy bombers and long-range reconnaisance, EE and Vickers to strike and attack with TSR.2 etc., Hawker, Fairey, Gloster and DeHavilland to fighters (P.1121, P.1154 etc.) and air-to-air guided missiles, Armstrong-Whitworth and Saro (given their rocket experience with SR.53 and SR.177) to space.
 

Spark

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Hi ,

For the later AW pyramid/triangle a runway. but it was suggested initially with out any re-entry experiance a parachute was a good idea.
Remember article possibly in American magazine middle fifties about the Avro Canada Saucer which suggested it might be good for re-entry. the original had a spinning disc with stable central cockpit





Michel Van said:
THX again for Information Barrington Bond

look like Dr W. F. Hilton made a Lenticular Vehicles
but how was it's final landing sequence, gliding down a runway or parachute into ocean ?
 

OM

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pathology_doc said:
Grif said:
I believe the flying saucer to be one seriously suggested by a british aerodynamicist named, I think, Hilton - he quoted Puck in saying "I'll put a girdle round the Earth in forty minutes" or something like that!

IIRC, the character John Savage in "Brave New World" attributes this capability to Ariel. Having actually acted in the relevant play, I'm pretty sure it's Puck.

...And on *that* note:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gxDNmrJ65A
 

Michel Van

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Graphic Bumb from other post

British manned program in 60s? http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8119.0.html
index.php

from the Times Survey of British Aviation September 1958

index.php

1962 RAF Capsule

Armstrong-Whitworth Pyramid http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2946.30.html
index.php


index.php
 

Michel Van

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carmelo said:
Michel Van said:
index.php

1962 RAF Capsule

Oh my God,is fantastic !!!
WHAT IS THIS?!?
A British Mercury project?? :eek:

it's from the 1962 british Royal tournament, were the British military force present them self
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8119.msg151833.html#msg151833
 

Michel Van

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carmelo said:
Oh my God,is fantastic !!!
WHAT IS THIS?!?
A British Mercury project?? :eek:


That form delightful movie "Heavens Above!" with Peter Sellers


but your not so far away, carmelo
there were proposals to use Mercury type capsule for british manned space flight
like in 1960 P. A. E. Stewart proposed a British manned Moon Program
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6954.0.html


and if recall right there were some post here in space project
about that RAF had idea of license build or buy Gemini or MOL hardware from USA
 

carmelo

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Michel Van said:
and if recall right there were some post here in space project
about that RAF had idea of license build or buy Gemini or MOL hardware from USA

Wonderful,wonderful !!! a Gemini,with RAF roundel! :D
And a British space laboratory..but in this case the more appropiate name was....MODS B) ("Manned Orbital Development System").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manned_Orbital_Development_System
 

Michel Van

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carmelo said:
Michel Van said:
and if recall right there were some post here in space project
about that RAF had idea of license build or buy Gemini or MOL hardware from USA

Wonderful,wonderful !!! a Gemini,with RAF roundel! :D
And a British space laboratory..but in this case the more appropiate name was....MODS B) ("Manned Orbital Development System").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manned_Orbital_Development_System


for those the who not understand, MOD'S stand in Great Britain for a youth modernist subculture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mod_(subculture)
one of there symbol were motor scooter customizing with lamps and RAF roundel! ;D
742px-Union_Jack_Painting_Lambretta.jpg

a in same way customized british Gemini capsule ? ROFL !
 
R

RGClark

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The BAC Mustard was discussed earlier on the forum:

MUSTARD, Sea Dragon, AMLLV articles.
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2010, 05:39:09 pm »
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9863.15.html

BAC Multi-Unit Space Transport and Recovery Device (MUSTARD)
« on: August 09, 2007, 01:23:51 pm »
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2260.0.html

Economic Space Transport.
BAC's Proposals for a Low Cost "Obital Transporter".
FLIGHT International, 24 March 1966, p. 473-474.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1966/1966%20-%200816.html

This was a 'trimese' system consisting of three copies of reusable lifting bodies. Probably with today's more efficient engines it could be done by a 'bimese' system.

Bob Clark
 

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RGClark

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Saw this on Astronautix:

ESA ACRV.
European manned spacecraft. Study 1992. As Hermes gradually faded into oblivion, the European Space Agency started to take a closer a look at cheaper and less complicated manned space capsules.
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/esaacrv.htm

NASA has found with its Commercial Crew Development program that crew capsules or spaceplanes can be developed for costs in the few hundred million dollar range each, as proven definitively by SpaceX, if they are partially supported by NASA and partially financed by the aerospace companies themselves:

Four companies win big money via NASA’s CCDEV-2 awards.
April 18th, 2011 by Chris Bergin
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2011/04/four-companies-win-nasas-ccdev-2-awards/

This is clearly something the ESA could emulate to get its own indigenous manned spaceflight capability.


Bob Clark


ctv936.jpg

ESA ACRV
Credit: ESA via Marcus Lindroos
 

PMN1

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RGClark said:
ctv936.jpg

ESA ACRV
Credit: ESA via Marcus Lindroos

Just a thought but given the pointy end is at the front, the passengers are not facing a very good direction for launch?????
 

Michel Van

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PMN1 said:
Just a thought but given the pointy end is at the front, the passengers are not facing a very good direction for launch? ??? ?


that's seat position for reentry, during launch the seat are turn 180°
by the way, is this ESA design even British ?
 
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RGClark

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Michel Van said:
PMN1 said:
Just a thought but given the pointy end is at the front, the passengers are not facing a very good direction for launch? ??? ?

that's seat position for reentry, during launch the seat are turn 180°
by the way, is this ESA design even British ?

Perhaps not. However, this one is:

Multi-Role Recovery Capsule.
British manned spacecraft. Study 1987. Britain was the only European Space Agency member opposed to ESA's ambitious man-in-space plan, and the British conservative government refused to approve the November 1987 plan.
However, the British aerospace industry did propose some interesting alternatives, such as the $2-billion 'Multi-Role Recovery Capsule'.
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/mulpsule.htm

The important fact is SpaceX has shown with its Dragon capsule and NASA has confirmed with its CCDEV program that privately developed spacecraft perhaps with governmental seed money can be developed for costs in the few hundred million dollars range. So the BAe could develop this spacecraft, not for $2 billion, but for an amount comparable to that spent on the Dragon, ca. $300 million.
In fact the individual nations of the ESA could develop their own indigenous manned spaceflight capability by following this approach.

Bob Clark


mrcaw87.jpg

Multi-Role RC
Multi-Role Recovery Capsule - BAe,1987.
Credit: NASA via Marcus Lindroos
 

Grey Havoc

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CNH said:
There was actually an OR - 9001.

In the PRO, you will find a very long study for the vehicle in question carried out by the RAE. Like most RAE studies, it was completely divorced from reality. Here's a pic:

index.php



CJGibson said:
There is a brief outline of OR.9001 and OR.9002 (counter satellite system) in BSP.4. As CNH says, the RAE were somewhat divorced from reality. There was also a (possibly) more realistic OR.9003 for a recon sat/vehicle.

Chris
 

carmelo

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Oh my goodness gracious!
A RAF Dyna Soar!!! :eek:

Michel Van said:
for those the who not understand, MOD'S stand in Great Britain for a youth modernist subculture

one of there symbol were motor scooter customizing with lamps and RAF roundel! ;D

Mods are widespread also in north Italy..but the roundel is always that of RAF,not the Italian roundel.
 

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