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Blackburn Buccaneer developments

BlackBat242

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TinWing said:
The Medway, a JT8D equivalent, was indeed based on the earlier Conway, which more or less was the equivalent of the contemporary JT3D. Of course, the Spey didn't exactly have a commercial competitor from P&W, at least not one that made it to production.

The TF30 was virtually equal to the non-afterburning Spey in power, fuel consumption, & weight - but was slightly larger in diameter (42" vs 38") and length (125" vs 115"-118"). As it was originally designed as a subsonic engine* (like the Spey was), it would have been suitable for similar commercial use.

However, P&W had already created a turbofan version of the J52 (the JTD-8, first run in 1960), which (at 42.5"/123.5") was right at the TF30's diameter and length, and was also a little more powerful at the start (12,250lbf) and a lot more powerful in later versions (21,000lbf with a diameter of 49") than either.

This engine saw a lot of commercial success, as well as powering the SAAB Viggen (with inclusion of an afterburner), and powering ships and land power stations as the FT12.


* For the Douglas FD6 Missileer. It also powered the Vought A-7 Corsair II in the A/B/C variants, before a modified Spey was selected for the A-7D/E versions (TF41, jointly developed and produced by Allison and RR).
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Petrus said:
'Buccaneer. The Story of the Last All-British Strike Aicraft' by Tim Laming p. 12:

The design [of the P.1108] featured no less than four RB.115 engines positioned under the inner wing (a preliminary design even featured six engines), and Rolls-Royce's John Fozard had great difficulty convincing Hawker taht the additional safety of four engines would be worth the direct trade-off against additional weight and complexity.

Also the RB.115 designation appears in some drawings of the P.1108 - take a look at what's been attached.

Piotr

John Fozard worked at Hawker. He designed the Harrier. Bit of an error there from Mr Laming.
 

Pioneer

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I've just stumbled across this model on another web page, and thought this would be the best place to post it!

Its a model of the 1958 unsolicited Blackburn B.109 strike-fighter proposal to the RCAF, with the following attached comments:

A model of a proposed development of the Buccaneer strike aircraft (which saw service initially with the Royal Navy and later the RAF) aimed at the Canadian Armed Forces. The B.109 was an unsolicited proposal made against a declared need for a new interceptor and strike aircraft. The aircraft was to be powered by two Rolls-Royce Avon RB.146 engines with reheat, to have a lengthened fuselage and non-folding wings with reduced outboard thickness : all of which combined to raise the top speed to Mach 1.65. The result was a good looking aircraft but the proposal aroused insufficient interest from the Canadians and no prototype was ever produced..

The model, which is in 1:48 scale and dates from 1959, is almost certainly a one-off, made in-house.

(Source: Article - http://www.aviationmodels-online.com/Featured_model9/Blackburn%20B109.htm
Model - Sir George Cox Collection)

Regards
Pioneer
 

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apparition13

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Just because I got frustrated having to look things up in 'From Spitfire to Eurofighter' by Roy Boot everytime I had a question about Buccaneer variants, here's the list with short summaries (the book has more details) excluding the Tornado avionics testbed Buccaneer, which doesn't seem to have a B or P number:

B.103: design that led to the production version
S.1: Gyron Junior production version.
S.2: Spey production version.
Mark 2 with Martel, Marks 2B and 2D: four pylon upgrade including Martel capability.
Bomb door tank from that in the P.149 proposal was developed, approved for production, and retrofitted to the fleet.

B.108: Proposal for OR.339 (TSR.2); navigation radar, TFR, INS. Met all but the speed requirements.
B.109: unsolicited proposal for supersonic (M 1.65) interceptor and strike aircraft. Lengthened by 8 feet, with Avon engines.
B.111: Spey powered fighter and strike aircraft for RAF
B.112: Spey powered fighter and strike aircraft for RN.
B.113: B.111 for Australia.
B.116: Spey powered B.103 offered to West Germany. They had earlier rejected the Gyron Junior powered design.
B.117: B.112 with a larger wing (700 square feet vs. 508, with a span of 50' and a second wing fold near the wing tip) for better high altitude performance and maneuverabilitiy.

B. 124, 126, 127, 128: Minor developments.

B. 129, later the P.140: Fighter version, Mach 1.8-2.0. Revitalized as a proposal for a Carrier aircraft in 1964. Rejected because there was no operational requirement, only for the role to be filled by the Spey Phantom a few months later.

B.132, 133: Rocket Assisted Take-Off versions of S.1 and S.2
B.134: improved weapon system and airframe changes, later known as Mk.2*
B.136:Became the Mark 50 for South Africa

Low LCN Bogie undercarriage: A four wheeled bogie undercarriage for more flexibility in land based operations; a part of several proposals but never adopted.

Mk.3: Litton INS; Litton central digital computer; HD dual band radar with search, ground mapping, and attack modes; optically matched topo map and radar display; a television sight display. General updating of systems and airframe.

Mk.2*, from B. 134: Analog version of Mk.3, later with Martel capability. Evolved into Mark 2 with Martel.

P.142: Supersonic Buccaneer proposal.
P.143: Buccaneer fuel and stores pallet.
P.145: Land based. Martel wing stores, Mark 50 RATO, bogie undercarriage, Mk.3 avionics, with some other changes including a HUD, nav and weapon release computers, the P.143 pallet, and a recon pack. Mix and match depending on what the customer might want.
P.148: Retrofit of Spey to Mk.1
P.149: New radars, including TFR, booster engine for take off, bomb door tank, camera pack.

P.150: Last supersonic proposal, Mach 1.8+. IDS role, 6 foot extension in total, new tail unit, bogie undercarriage, fuel and stores pallet, similar radius to Mk.2. IOC 1975.

P.157: CAS and IDS Buccaneer. No maritime strike role. Digital INS for nav/attack, HUD, low light TV and laser ranger/marked target seeker, new radar, TFR, twin guns with shorter weapons bay, self starting via an APU, braking parachute, tandem wheel undercarriage, quick action flaps and ailerons for shorter takeoff run. IOC 1981-1982.
 
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Archibald

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B.108: Proposal for OR.339 (TSR.2); navigation radar, TFR, INS. Met all but the speed requirements.

D'OH !!

B. 129, later the P.140: Fighter version, Mach 1.8-2.0. Revitalized as a proposal for a Carrier aircraft in 1964. Rejected because there was no operational requirement, only for the role to be filled by the Spey Phantom a few months later.

D'OH !!

These two sentences by themselves speak volumes about British "missed opportunities".

250px-Abbey.png

B.116: Spey powered B.103 offered to West Germany. They had earlier rejected the Gyron Junior powered design.

Wise Germans, so wise... well, not so wise, they picked the F-104G instead.

D'OH !

The british aircraft industry, such an immense potential as of 1945, so many missed opportunities... its post-war history really looks like this (one d'oh = one dumbheaded decision)

 
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CJGibson

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You forgot the P. 139 AEW variant but they aren't in Boot's book.

Chris
 

apparition13

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These two sentences by themselves speak volumes about British "missed opportunities".
Yeah, "we have no need for a Phantom-like aircraft - oh look, a Phantom" is like something out of a Python skit.

Although personally it's the failure to pursue the attack variants (B.108, Mk3 avionics, P.145/149/150/157), that would have obviated the need for the TSR.2, F-111K, and Tornado, that I find egregious. And the money saved on those could have been spent on, I don't know, P.1154 or CVA01, or something else in that timeframe. The P.1154 would get my vote.

You forgot the P. 139 AEW variant but they aren't in Boot's book.

Chris
Do you have any details and/or a source for that project?
 

kaiserd

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The developed “fighter” Buccaneer is probably best seen as an equivalent to the Russian Tu-128 Fiddler or the US Missileer (with a supersonic dash capacity added but far inferior radar and missiles - likely we are talking about the later Lightenings fit but perhaps with a bigger dish plus likely 4 missiles rather than 2).
The “fighter” Buccaneer was a niche aircraft that perhaps most closely suited to Canadian NORAD scenarios (hence the focus on targeting Canada). However they are unlikely to have wanted the UK radar or missiles of the time and that’s before they would have considered the pros or cons of the airframe itself.
In a sense it was also a considerably less flexible and less capable version of what the Tornado ADV later became. Though in fairness in comparison the Tornado ADV was a maneuverable hot-rod.
The F-4 was very clearly a much better choice at the time as a fighter and fighter-bomber and few would see the “fighter” Buccaneer as any great lost opportunity.
An improved strike version of the Buccaneer may have been a more sensible alternative to the TSR2 but that’s another story.
 
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Hood

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Agreed, all this Buccaneer fighter fixation is rather odd given it was a platform for low-altitude nuclear strike and very good at what it was designed for. It was not designed as an agile fighter and would of needed extensive redesign and why waste effort on that rather than a fresh sheet approach like the P.141?

This is a very handy list of Bucc variants, though I think there might be some more from Tony Buttler's BSP appendices too.
 

JFC Fuller

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Agreed, all this Buccaneer fighter fixation is rather odd given it was a platform for low-altitude nuclear strike and very good at what it was designed for. It was not designed as an agile fighter and would of needed extensive redesign and why waste effort on that rather than a fresh sheet approach like the P.141?

This is a very handy list of Bucc variants, though I think there might be some more from Tony Buttler's BSP appendices too.

It is worth pointing out that the Buccaneer fighter proposals were generally industry originated suggestions and weren't written against an actual OR.
 

zen

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A Fighter variant of the Buccaneer only makes sense from the endurance point of view. Certainly potential for more than 2 hours CAP.

But the best fighter-like offering to NA.39 is still the Shorts PD.13.
With second place for fighter-like being the Westland offering.
 

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A Fighter variant of the Buccaneer only makes sense from the endurance point of view. Certainly potential for more than 2 hours CAP.

But the best fighter-like offering to NA.39 is still the Shorts PD.13.
With second place for fighter-like being the Westland offering.

Fighters over the Fleet mentions a RN desire for a Missileer-type Bucc around the time of the USN Missileer push
 

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P.135 (h/t overscan)



P.150 (h/t Jemiba)
 

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One cannot forget the HS.1197-1, which was basically a standard Buccaneer with a double-bogie landing gear and was to be fitted with more advanced avionics. It was tendered to the AST.396 which was to replace the Jaguar and the Harrier. It is found in Tony Buttler's "British Secret Projects 2: British Jet Bombers Since 1949". Does anybody have any further information about this aircraft?
 

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20191016_200631.jpg20191016_200605.jpg

I built a P157 (HS1197-1) for The SIG stand at Scale Model World to coincide with Chris Gibson's Typhoon- Typhoon intended launch at the show.
Another reference for the type, along with Roy Boots,From Spitfire to Eurofighter
 

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A Tentative Fleet Plan

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View attachment 627643View attachment 627644

I built a P157 (HS1197-1) for The SIG stand at Scale Model World to coincide with Chris Gibson's Typhoon- Typhoon intended launch at the show.
Another reference for the type, along with Roy Boots,From Spitfire to Eurofighter

What's the story with the blunt-nosed Tornado behind?
Another aircraft based upon the Air Defence Variant designed to meet AST.396. The blunt nose contains 26" diameter ball which itself contains a Laser Ranger and Marked Target Seeker (LRMTS) and FLIR. A Terrain-Following-Radar is carried in a fairing below the nose, whilst a LLLTV set (the Visual Augmentation System originally proposed for the ADV variant) is placed immediately forward of the windscreen in the upper nose.
 

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The Tornado AST.396 is in the Panavia Tornado thread, as this is for the Buccaneer projects
 

Foo Fighter

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Nothing wrong with simply answering a question is there?
 

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blackkite

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blackkite

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Taken from youtube.
Title : Blackburn Buccaneer: The Last British Bomber (Planes of Fame)
 

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blackkite

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Hi!
Source : PROJECT CANCELLED.
 

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From Spitfire to Eurofighter by Roy Boot.

'In 1959 serious attempts had been made to sell the NA.39 in its original configuration to the West German Navy'

Does anyone know what the West German Navy thought of the design?

The West German Navy thought very high about the Buccaneer!
It was the favorite choice for the Navy, but unfortunately politics intervened and the Starfighter was choosen for the Navy ...

I believe I have read somewhere, that the West German Navy had send already personal for evaluation purposes to the UK.
 

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