BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter

SteveO

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Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Paper P.1216 :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RduMDVgyYxo
 

CJGibson

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Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Roll up! Roll up!

Special Maggie edition of Mike Pryce's P.1216 book available now! Contains three full colour photos of the late Baroness Thatcher resplendent in a plum suit, with brooch and pussy-bow, that you won't have seen in any of the papers today, not even the Telegraph. Only £9.95 plus postage.

Chris Bandwagon-Jumper

PS Offer not available to anyone north of Watford.
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

CJGibson said:
Roll up! Roll up!

Special Maggie edition of Mike Pryce's P.1216 book available now! Contains three full colour photos of the late Baroness Thatcher resplendent in a plum suit, with brooch and pussy-bow, that you won't have seen in any of the papers today, not even the Telegraph. Only £9.95 plus postage.

Chris Bandwagon-Jumper

PS Offer not available to anyone north of Watford.
ROTFL!
 

harrier

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Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Had a few orders in pre-Christmas and have sent these.


Please note last posting dates for Christmas delivery here:


http://www.royalmail.com/greetings


so UK only possible up to this Friday.


All stock nearly gone now so thanks to all who have bought the book, and Merry Christmas.


Mike
 

TomS

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Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

I just recently ordered this and am glad that I got it before it was completely sold out. Excellent work!
 

harrier

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Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

TomS,


Glad you like it. I have two left and just got one more order....


The next one (Harrier projects) is on hold due to pressure of work and my second child being due in six days time ( :eek: ).


But one day soon, I promise!
 

CJGibson

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Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

I have copies of P.1216 if anyone wants one.

If anyone has noticed any typos or errors in P.1216, this might be the time to let me know as I'm pondering a second print run.

Chris
 

Jemiba

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Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Harrier said:
... and my second child being due in six days time ( :eek: ).
Our second child was about ten days late, wouldn't that be enough ? ;D

Sorry for this, all the best and no worries, your experience with the first one will make it
much easier now. When you'll get the fifth or sixth child, it will just bring additional spare
time for the then next book... ;)
Have just borrowed the BAe P.1216 book to a friend and browsing through before, showed
me it's quality again !
 

CJGibson

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Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

This book is all sold out now.

Any typos and errors that you've noticed, please flag them up soon as I'll be doing a second print run.

The GA on inside the back cover will be replaced with a higher res version.

Who'd rather see photos and drawings of aircraft than photos of Maggie? I'm sure we can work a TSR.2 in there. Anyone got another suggestion?

Chris
 

fudge

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Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Hi
I seem to remember a very nice photo of the P1216 mock up and a picture of a scale model in the Roy Braybrook volume "Harrier the vertical reality" I don't know who has the copyright on those pictures.
If only Adrian Mann could be persuaded to do some illustrations.
 

MihoshiK

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Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Very much looking forward to the new print run. Might gift a volume or two to friends of mine. The original is still a prized treasure in my collection.
 

harrier

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Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

I still have a dozen copies if anyone wants one.


Regarding a re-print, I have a picture or two more, some typos and bits of new info that can go in. Always hard to add new things despite having dug up much more, including three reports on 1216 survivability with great pics and info on how it would fare against SA-15 and laser weapons!


I have a preference for real pictures when they exist over modern illustrations - I am a big fan of Adrian Mann and he did some great stuff on HS681 for me, but the 1216 has many pictures done at the time so I'd prefer to give them first dibs on space.


And finally, on election day, Maggie will stay in any re-print/second edition. Whatever your politics, she visited the 1216 so was part of the story, and there are many more pics of her with the mock-up. I may add six more, just for Chris...
 

CJGibson

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Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Editor's decision is final.
 

The Other Chris

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Re: BAe P.1216: Supersonic ASTOVL fighter by Michael Pryce

Harrier said:
I still have a dozen copies if anyone wants one.
Do you still have any copies left?

If so, what is the best method to order with the site unavailable?
 

CJGibson

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Good news for supersonic ASTOVL fans!

I have just submitted a reprint order for Mike's P.1216 book.

Should be available by the end of February.

Thanks

Chris
 

Tony Williams

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Essential for anyone interested in British military aviation history.

Planes like the TSR2 and the P.1154 have been covered over and over, but this one hasn't been and IMO it's just as significant. A pity we didn't put the resources which went into Typhoon into the P1216 instead.
 

SteveO

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Great book on a fascinating project. Anything new or changed in the reprint?
 

overscan

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I think there's some minor changes. Chris or Mike can comment.
 

CJGibson

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Not much changed, a few images tweaked, the slightly jaggy GA on the inside back cover has been replaced. Maggie fans will be gad to hear she survived. Some text has been updated/tweaked, but all-in-all nothing major.

Hopefully be available by the start of March.

Chris
 

SteveO

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Hmmmm.... some changes then. Will I be able to resist buying another one? ;D

What's next for ProjectTech Profiles? Harrier Projects ready yet?
 

CJGibson

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It's back! Less jaggy drawings, tweaked images and still has Maggie.

Available again from the usual sources (probably not Amazon). Sorry about the delay, I was milking the last of the work from the oil industry.

£9.95 plus postage, buy now before lack of work forces a price increase.

Chris
 

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overscan

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Less jaggy drawings is always good. If you missed out on this last time, better order a copy now!
 

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I have one question. Can somebody tell me if the following link is a valuable source ? I'm puzzled by the fact that DARPA did not considered the P.1216 for ASTOVL before Lockheed's and Bevilaqua stepped in with the lift fan concept in 1987.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/astovl.htm

Does the book have information on this specific subject ?
 

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P.1216 was UK only with some (most?) funding from Industry. P.1230 was shared with the US as an advanced stovl configuration. Both are described in the book.

And DARPA and the US were looking for new ways to do ASTOVL as research, not necessarily what would work... and mature into a low risk procurement programme...

But as soon as you add in LO requirements and CTOL and CV versions, the P.1216 configuration doesn't really hold together. A different direct lift + pcb configuration might be ok. Or lift+lift/cruise...
 

harrier

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Thanks. Will send 1st class tomorrow as on work trip today.
 

steelpillow

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Arrived this morning. Been hiding with it in a corner during the heat of the day. :)
Wonderful profile of a wonderful machine we really should have gone ahead with, though I need to look out for the discussions on plenum chamber burning.

The P.1219 at the end caught my eye, as I am currently researching the history of the outboard tail, in which the tail picks up where the wing ends. The P.1219 is basically a P.1216 with the wing stopping short at the tailbooms. It carries strong echoes of the Vought ADAM II studies from twenty years before. Do you happen to have any more information about it?
 

harrier

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Glad you like it. :D

The P1219 was a brief study to see if a lighter airframe could be created. However, the low aspect ratio would reduce turn rate and STO lift, so it was quickly discarded. That one picture and one page of comments was all that was done.

The ADAM had a 'jet flap', which gives very different lift characteristics (and failure modes).
 

steelpillow

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A whole page of comments? Did it say anything else?

I don't think the BAe people can have been fully aware of the outboard tail's characteristics in the way that Vought were. It can easily be positioned in the wing upwash where it will provide a useful reduction in vortex-induced drag, and BAe have indeed moved it forward to a more effective position for that. But I am not sure if they knew what they were doing, or were simply lightening the plane by shortening the booms. Its interaction with the downwash would also have produced useful lift and would have compensated for the loss of the first 15% of the wing area. That leaves around 10% still to recover, which could easily be done by increasing the wing span a little, pushing the booms apart so that the span of the tail now matched the original wing span. Both these effects would also help to restore STOL lift, and good low-speed performance is a characteristic benefit of the outboard tail. That BAe did not realise this suggests that they were not paying attention to the Vought studies, or to the earlier Blohm & Voss studies that Vought did know about. But yes, sustained turn rate would suffer, due to the loss of forward lifting area and reduced tail moment arm. Which should not matter, unless you have by now developed a National allergy to thrust-vectoring during a dogfight. :(
 

harrier

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BAe knew about the Vought work. They were concerned with using the booms to twist the inner wing, with the ailerons used to do this by affecting the flow over the tail.

They were addressing different problems from Vought - a PCB engine means thrust is never lacking, but in certain flight regimes key control aspects dominated, and a desire to not bleed power from the core for the reaction controls.

I can say more when I dig out that page. Work hectic at the moment.
 

steelpillow

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While I am waiting (grin), I have scaled the 3-view of the P.1216-41 on the back endpaper to 1:72. It's big for a Harrier derivative, compare it to the original P.1127 I have put alongside it in this photo:

By the way, if I wanted to publish that 1:72 set, whose permission would I need?
 

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taildragger

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I recently purchased this original painting, by Pat Owen dated 1980 or 1983, of what looks like a p.1216 variant. It doesn't seem be illustrated in the book although there are canard-configured variants mentioned. I'd think that the the proposal must have had some promenance if the marketing guys had a painting done of it, assuming it's not fan-art. Does anyone know anything about this proposal?
57889494987__44835D9E-CB2F-4BD1-B6E7-4957121F7320.JPG
 

harrier

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I recently purchased this original painting, by Pat Owen dated 1980 or 1983, of what looks like a p.1216 variant. It doesn't seem be illustrated in the book although there are canard-configured variants mentioned. I'd think that the the proposal must have had some promenance if the marketing guys had a painting done of it, assuming it's not fan-art. Does anyone know anything about this proposal?
View attachment 614228
It's a Rolls Royce painting. As actual designs could not be shown at the time this allowed them to show the three post nozzles without revealing the P1216. Roy Braybrook pointed out it would need lead ballast in the tail booms to balance, and Francis K Mason even put it in the Hawker Putnam, but it was artwork, not a design. I first saw it in a BBC Money Programme in the 80s.
 

harrier

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While I am waiting (grin), I have scaled the 3-view of the P.1216-41 on the back endpaper to 1:72. It's big for a Harrier derivative, compare it to the original P.1127 I have put alongside it in this photo:

By the way, if I wanted to publish that 1:72 set, whose permission would I need?
Very slow reply I signed a form with BAE Heritage and got the material security cleared back in 2009 to publish for the book. I assume you would need to repeat that. Also, copying the book pictures and republishing would breach copyright of the book.
 

steelpillow

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I signed a form with BAE Heritage and got the material security cleared back in 2009 to publish for the book. I assume you would need to repeat that. Also, copying the book pictures and republishing would breach copyright of the book.
Thank you, I hope to follow it up in due course. Since the material has already been declassified, there should at least be no need to go through that again. If they have no suitable digital image I may come back and ask about licensing a copy of yours. Dare I also ask if your copy of the P.1219 (cropped wing) variant would bear enlargement?
I can reassure you that I have no intention of pirating anybody's stuff, that's why I am asking.
 
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