AH-64 Apache Projects

SteveO said:
TomS said:
SteveO said:
TomS said:
But this picture appears to add some things that are not in the fielded v6. Most obvious is the third pylon carrying ALE on an extended stub wing. And the other side has a possible laser weapon pod -- that's not a fuel tank with that hemispherical fairing.
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I think they are just stubby fuel tanks. The Apache banking towards the cliff has two on the right wing. Maybe the stores are carried asymmetrically to prevent damage to the external fuel tanks? Saying that, it would make sense to have a laser weapon inside a similar pod.
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All the tanks I can find in photos are somewhat pointed.
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Stubby ones on a Jayhawk ;) Or they could be EW pods!
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Not an Apache, though. All the AH-64 tanks I could find are more streamlined.
 
TomS said:
SteveO said:
TomS said:
SteveO said:
TomS said:
But this picture appears to add some things that are not in the fielded v6. Most obvious is the third pylon carrying ALE on an extended stub wing. And the other side has a possible laser weapon pod -- that's not a fuel tank with that hemispherical fairing.
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I think they are just stubby fuel tanks. The Apache banking towards the cliff has two on the right wing. Maybe the stores are carried asymmetrically to prevent damage to the external fuel tanks? Saying that, it would make sense to have a laser weapon inside a similar pod.
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All the tanks I can find in photos are somewhat pointed.
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Stubby ones on a Jayhawk ;) Or they could be EW pods!
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Not an Apache, though. All the AH-64 tanks I could find are more streamlined.
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The new crash worthy Fuel tanks looks to be far more blunted.
www.psmagazine.army.mil

Apache: New Fuel Tanks Coming

If you haven’t heard, a new reduced-sized crashworthy external fuel system (RCEFS), NSN 1560-01-564-2584, is coming to your AH-64E aircraft.
www.psmagazine.army.mil

These are to replace all the old ones since they are safer in a crash.
 
No fins on that tank or pod in the model however. My guess is some sort of EW system.
 
I stand corrected!
www.avweb.com

Raytheon Testing Helicopter Laser Weapon

An AH-64 Apache with a pod-mounted laser was test fired on targets at the Armys White Sands Missile Range late last week. The laser, made and tested by defense contractor Raytheon, engaged a stationary target 1.4 kilometers (slant range distance) from the helicopter. The promise of directed...
www.avweb.com www.avweb.com
 

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SteveO said:
I stand corrected!
www.avweb.com

Raytheon Testing Helicopter Laser Weapon

An AH-64 Apache with a pod-mounted laser was test fired on targets at the Armys White Sands Missile Range late last week. The laser, made and tested by defense contractor Raytheon, engaged a stationary target 1.4 kilometers (slant range distance) from the helicopter. The promise of directed...
www.avweb.com www.avweb.com
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Can we call it 'Redwolf?'
 
Forest Green said:
Wasn't there a plan to allow some of the chain gun ammo to be replaced with fuel if needed?
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Correct. Robertson has developed a tank, called a "Robbie-tank" that fits in the ammo bay. The Apache can still carry some ammunition. I am not familiar with how much flight time the tank adds to the aircraft.
 
yasotay said:
I am not familiar with how much flight time the tank adds to the aircraft.
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It's in my link above. The Combo-Pak adds just under an hour. (Presumably best case, since this is the manufacturer talking.)

Edit: Chart from that link:
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New cockpit：
 

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@Raptor - Quite the assortment in the last picture, 2x ALE, 12 X ATGM, a laser, and a fuel tank.

@FighterJock - unless the Army goes for the the " Apachnne"(AH56 tail) which would be a new aircraft, I suspect that the Guardian will be the base aircraft, refurbished to become the new version.
 
yasotay said:
@Raptor - Quite the assortment in the last picture, 2x ALE, 12 X ATGM, a laser, and a fuel tank.

@FighterJock - unless the Army goes for the the " Apachnne"(AH56 tail) which would be a new aircraft, I suspect that the Guardian will be the base aircraft, refurbished to become the new version.
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Thanks for that yasotay, it may be that the Apache with the AH-56 tail will just be too advanced and probably never see the light of day. It also depends on how Sikorsky does with it’s prototype S-97 Raider as to what helicopter the US Army selects for production.
 
Forest Green said:
It would be weird if they replaced the Apache with a helicopter like the one they selected the Apache over.
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Put it this way, I do not like the way the S-97 looks, I much prefer the Apache over it. We will have to wait to see what happens when the US Army selects its next attack helicopter.
 
Apache with NOTAR, would love to get hands on higher resolution 3 view drawing.
 

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Ah-64 winter kit, not sure we have it posted already:

57895ab43ec43.image.jpg


Detail of ski here:

Screenshot_20230430_090448.jpg
 
AeroFranz said:
They considered several levels of redesign. In the presentation, Boeing mentioned that they cut the drag of the standard Apache airframe by 25% just with fairings and cosmetics. They did go further than that, but it was decided that it would be more appealing cost-wise to not go too deep with the mods (the propulsion/transmission/rotor). Essentially an 80/20 solution.
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Yup. It's always true that you can get about 80% of the desired improvements for about 20% of the cost. It's chasing that last few percent that drives the costs through the roof.


kaiserd said:
Given the almost zero chance that an Apache will be armed with a ramjet powered missile and that a dedicated ARM is almost as unlikely (certainly not a particularly high priority) perhaps the discussion is best focused back on the actual topic; “AH-64 Apache Projects”.
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I still don't get why there wasn't an run of new-build AGM-122 Sidearms...


jsport said:
Thats great if your shooting tanks w/o APS.
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Based on Ukraine invasion, how many tanks have APS?

Also, how many AA vehicles have APS? (assuming that the AA vehicles are not particularly capable of shooting down an ATGM directly)

Use the slow, long range missiles to smite the AA defenses of a formation, then go in with faster, shorter range missiles once the AA threat is gone.


Grey Havoc said:
As I recall it, provision for marinisation of the new 'Made in America' Apaches for the RAF was specifically dropped from the finalised contract, as a cost saving measure. HM Treasury at work.
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As usual, the greatest threat to HMDefense is HMTreasury...


GTX said:
From what I understand, the Australian Army wants the Apache...they just need to convince their political masters now...

That said, I believe BAE Systems/Bell will put forward an extremely attractive industrial solution which will be challenging to beat.
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The only catch is that the AH-1Z is very expensive, some $30mil each. But otherwise, yes, if I was looking for a helicopter that I knew was going to spend a lot of time on ships around salt water, it'd be hard to not buy Cobras.
 
kaiserd said:
Given the almost zero chance that an Apache will be armed with a ramjet powered missile and that a dedicated ARM is almost as unlikely (certainly not a particularly high priority) perhaps the discussion is best focused back on the actual topic; “AH-64 Apache Projects”.
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I still don't get why there wasn't an run of new-build AGM-122 Sidearms...


No requirement for that has been put forward. The expense of integration would be significant. You would have to move the ASE on the wing tips (more integration) elsewhere on the aircraft, AGM-122 would reduce the payload of weapons already required on the aircraft. You would have even more ammunition types to lug around the battlefield in trucks (remember Army does not use airfields when the other side has missiles and drones that make airfields very hazardous).
The new Air Launched Effects (ALE) is supposed to remedy many of the ills Army Aviation has.
 
That and the Sidearm has a narrow frequency band that it can track and hit even with the seeker head being replaced with a broadband seekers.

Throw in that the primary threat for Attack copters are now thermal guide missile which often dont use radars or use KU/Ka band radars. And not radar guide guns the AGM122 was design for.

Which the Sidearm seeker head cant detected. Inaddition the system needed to be set for a frequency on the ground. Got painted by another Freq? SOL.

So the Seeker will need complete replacement.

Plus the range of the Sidearm was far shorter, less then 10km in helicopters flight where it be needed. So a new motor and likely airframe.

Toss in that the warhead was kinda bad at the job as well?

Well means you basically have a brand new missile with all that implies.
 
Deep Dive - Modernized Apache Capabilities​

1696800725472.png
Increased Range and Endurance

The ability to go farther, stay on the battlefield longer and be more lethal while navigating contested environments is key for Multi-Domain Operations (MDO) dominance. Modernized Apache will have a new engine, tail rotor and fuselage to specifically address those requirements and bring those capabilities to the aircraft.

New engine integration in the AH-64 Apache is part of the U.S. Army’s Improved Turbine Engine Program (ITEP), for which Boeing received a contract in 2019. The engine, a General Electric Aerospace T901, will offer increased fuel efficiency, enhanced health and usage monitoring, and significantly more available power.

Modifications to the main transmission drives, fuselage, and supporting components will allow the T901 engine to operate at full power. Updates to the fuselage and tail rotor will deliver a 20% increase in range and maximize the airframe’s power and weight. With these enhancements, Modernized Apache will have the payload capacity to be able to fly 135 nautical miles up, remain on the battlefield for roughly an hour and fly 135 nautical miles back – twice the endurance of the E-model configuration.
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Unmatched Lethality and Networking

The improved engine, drive system, tail rotor authority and fuselage bring an increase in payload capacity for increased endurance, range, and munitions on board, making the Apache even more versatile and lethal. The Modernized Apache can bring 3,400 – 4,400 lbs. of payload to the fight, providing joint forces with superior lethality and long-range weapons capability.

Building off of the E-model variant, Boeing designed the Modernized Apache to have the option to come with two extra pylons for a total of six, enabling an increase in weapons when compared to the AH-64E. The two additional pylons open up the aircraft to carry airborne long-range precision munitions, Launched Effects (LE) and potential future directed energy weapon system integration.

As it stands today, the AH-64E is the most heavily networked U.S. Army aircraft and the only platform that conducts integrated Manned-Unmanned Teaming (MUM-T) for both ISR & lethal effects. The Apache is the only U.S. Army platform that operates MUM-T, which means the aircraft will be able to integrate and manage LEs on the battlefield when they are fielded. Modernized Apache is capable of both autonomous launch and in-flight digital link-up. It will serve as the centerpiece of the MDO battlefield, maneuver and communicate rapidly, strike at range and survive in large scale combat to shorten and accelerate the kill chain, enable decision dominance and drive common situational understanding.
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Enhanced Survivability

The Modernized Apache will have enhanced survivability on the battlefield without sacrificing reach or safety of aircrews. Additionally, the Modernized Apache includes a Modular Open Systems Architecture (MOSA) that will allow the rapid insertion of new technologies and capabilities. Modernized Apache will keep our forces combat credible, resiliently networked, increasingly autonomous and adaptable to evolving threats – making the platform more capable and survivable on its last day of service than on its first.

The Army’s MDO concept requires network-centric interdependence and joint integration across the force, bringing improved combat effectiveness, lethality and survivability. Boeing’s Modernized Apache leverages the convergence of cutting-edge attack helicopter technologies to deliver advanced capabilities for unmatched battlefield situational awareness, long-range stand-off weapons for improved lethality and survivability and the connectivity needed to win today's fight and the future fight. Representing the most proven aircraft on the battlefield, the Modernized Apache will provide Army Aviation with the ability to “Fight and win on any battlefield, today and tomorrow.”
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Deep Dive - Modernized Apache Capabilities

www.boeing.com www.boeing.com
 
If FARA is unsuccessful, then Apache will soon see an upgrade. If FARA survives, an Apache upgrade, perhaps to keep Mesa alive, will not occur till mid 30's.
 
boeing.mediaroom.com

Boeing’s Enhanced AH-64E Apache Completes First Flight

MESA, Ariz., XX, 2023 – The newest version of the AH-64E Apache has successfully flown with an upgraded capabilities suite as Boeing [NYSE: BA] continues to modernize the platform. The upgraded...
boeing.mediaroom.com boeing.mediaroom.com
www.flightglobal.com

Improved version of AH-64E performs first flight

Boeing has conducted the first with an AH-64E Apache attack helicopter in a new configuration that comprises several systems updates.
www.flightglobal.com www.flightglobal.com
www.defensedaily.com

Boeing Flies AH-64E Version 6.5 For First Time, Says FARA Informing Future Modernized Apache - Defense Daily

Boeing has completed the first flight of the newest version of its Apache attack helicopter, the AH-64E Version 6.5, while the company is also looking to
www.defensedaily.com www.defensedaily.com
 
...cant be alone in voting for further 64 upgrades while the whole FARA concept becomes a longer term RDT&E project until a much more radical concept is matured.. better range/higher payload... transcontinental self deployment/very deep battle being a focus.
 
jsport said:
...cant be alone in voting for further 64 upgrades while the whole FARA concept becomes a longer term RDT&E project until a much more radical concept is matured.. better range/higher payload... transcontinental self deployment/very deep battle being a focus.
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The Cheyenne had cross-Atlantic self deployment originally. 6x Ferry tanks (or 4x + 2x cargo pods for pilot's stuff), and could do 200+knots for the whole trip.

Just put the pusher tail boom on the Apache, longer wings, and the improved aero bits that are already developed. Since we already know that the T901 engines are going in as a refit.
 
PS: if JAGM doesnt have SPEAR3 contractor range in a near future upgrade it is red ready ripoff.
Likewise FTAS & ALE should not be purchased in any number until they are largely, common inter-changeable multi-shot armed VTOLs. ie launch from a Apache for a mission then return to a forward ground unit for reload refuel able to be re mounted on a Apache and/or support forward ground units.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Seems to be ignoring that a 3d printed (laser sintered) part is significantly weaker than a forged part...
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Depends on many things.

If the wear time ends up being similar why not use it.

And the military been testing that since the 3D printing boom realky took off a few years back. And entire sub section of the research budget is fed into testing this out. Heck a few months the Navy put a set of 3d metal printers on the Kearsarge, who after a week of screwing with them told Big Navy that they not giving them back. And Ukraine got several back in August and basically said similar.

Apparently the parts are good enough for the end users.
 

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