Rickshaw

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In the late 1980s, research started on the new next-generation tank gun. It was quickly determined that it needed to be 140mm calibre. Initially it was to fire the same projectiles as the 120mm gun but at a higher velocity from a similar smoothbore barrel.

My question - what was the British plan? Were they intending to adopt the 140mm smoothbore gun?
 
Yes. ATAC was United States/France/Germany/United Kingdom up until at least the collapse of the Soviet Union.
 
Just so you have an idea of how BIG that 140mm ETC round was. Here it is and yes, it's a 2-part round and yes, that's a 120mm round next to it :eek:

2DuylXF.png
 
I don't think it was an ETC gun, at least from what I've read.

Did the guns that were built vary from nation to nation (just sharing a NATO standard caliber) or was it a standardized design? Were the Swiss part of ATAC development? I know they tested a 140mm gun on an upgraded Leopard 2.

I know the US XM291 was designed to be easily converted to fire 120mm ammunition. Had a greater barrel length than the M256, shame that never went anywhere.
 
Yes, it was ETC.

No clue if it was an international standard or a US only gun.

 
I don't think it was an ETC gun, at least from what I've read.

Did the guns that were built vary from nation to nation (just sharing a NATO standard caliber) or was it a standardized design? Were the Swiss part of ATAC development? I know they tested a 140mm gun on an upgraded Leopard 2.

I know the US XM291 was designed to be easily converted to fire 120mm ammunition. Had a greater barrel length than the M256, shame that never went anywhere.
 
Yes, it was ETC.

No clue if it was an international standard or a US only gun.

New posts I’ve begun adding to the ASM Topic


 
The International program was the US, the UK, France and German. There was a governmental Agreement on a common set of system parameters. Each country developed their own systems to meet these requirements.
Note the UK had two systems - one government sponsered by RARDE and another Private Venture by Royal Ordnance. None of the 140mm systems utilised ETC.

After each country had worked on their own systems there were a couple of combined International Study Programs to look at common systems, i.e. Ordnance assembly, Ammunition, Mounting, Recoil system etc..

In the US there was an ETC variant developed of the 120mm version of XM291 ordnance. Used on the upgraded XM8 Thunderbolt(?) demonstrator.

The other 140mm programs were outside of the above agreement.
 
Yes, it was ETC.

No clue if it was an international standard or a US only gun.


No it wasn't.

The XM291, the American version of the gun, was used as an ETC demonstrator several decades after the program had ended. They literally have nothing to do with each other. FWIW, the 140mm gun caliber was the British choice. I don't know what the French or Germans were siding with, if anything, and the USA had a preference towards either 145mm or 152mm.

I don't think it was an ETC gun, at least from what I've read.

Did the guns that were built vary from nation to nation (just sharing a NATO standard caliber) or was it a standardized design? Were the Swiss part of ATAC development? I know they tested a 140mm gun on an upgraded Leopard 2.

I know the US XM291 was designed to be easily converted to fire 120mm ammunition. Had a greater barrel length than the M256, shame that never went anywhere.

The Swiss used a Panzer 87 (a version of the Leopard 2) as a testbed for a 140mm gun, as did the Germans (but this was never built), but this was more comparable to M1 Thumper than anything. IIRC the turret ammo rack was used for projectiles, the hull ammo rack for propellant, and it could store about 18 rounds or so. The intended solution was a new turret which would have a Leopard 2A5 style wedge armor and a 140mm gun with an automatic bustle loader like the Leclerc.

None of the ATAC testbeds (yes, including CATTB) ever evolved far enough to develop a homogenized vision of what a future MBT would actually look like though. That sort of detailed work was supposed to be done in the early to mid-1990's, with production beginning in the late 1990's or early 2000's (the initial service date for M1 Block III was 2003 IOC, the same that the actual M1A2 SEP appeared, which borrowed a lot of thinking from Block III minus the more radical/untenable improvements), and the only reason anyone considered investing in tanks sort of evaporated well before that. The closest you get are a few weird testbeds that look at a few kludged breadboards like VIDS. Any 140mm gun tank from USA would have been an entirely new vehicle that shared only tangential similarities to the M1.

The sole exception to this kludgedness might be the Leclerc 140 which, at the time, had a examination of replacing the bustle loader with a slightly longer for the 140mm rounds and a 140mm gun. The French recently brought it out of the storage lot and gave it a new coat of paint for some reason relating to 130mm I think. But Leclerc was a brand new vehicle in the late 1980's so it's understandable that it would actually accommodate a significant firepower upgrade.

I suppose if Japan had wanted to buy a new tank gun it would have done the same to Type 90, which was similarly brand new.
 
The International program was the US, the UK, France and German. There was a governmental Agreement on a common set of system parameters. Each country developed their own systems to meet these requirements.
Note the UK had two systems - one government sponsered by RARDE and another Private Venture by Royal Ordnance. None of the 140mm systems utilised ETC.

After each country had worked on their own systems there were a couple of combined International Study Programs to look at common systems, i.e. Ordnance assembly, Ammunition, Mounting, Recoil system etc..

In the US there was an ETC variant developed of the 120mm version of XM291 ordnance. Used on the upgraded XM8 Thunderbolt(?) demonstrator.

The other 140mm programs were outside of the above agreement.
140mm ETC was part of initial plans. One common parameter was a common breech size of 20 cubic liters.
 

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The Japanese actually tested indigenous 120 and 135mm guns on the STC prototype.
Yes, it was ETC.

No clue if it was an international standard or a US only gun.


No it wasn't.

The XM291, the American version of the gun, was used as an ETC demonstrator several decades after the program had ended. They literally have nothing to do with each other. FWIW, the 140mm gun caliber was the British choice. I don't know what the French or Germans were siding with, if anything, and the USA had a preference towards either 145mm or 152mm.

I don't think it was an ETC gun, at least from what I've read.

Did the guns that were built vary from nation to nation (just sharing a NATO standard caliber) or was it a standardized design? Were the Swiss part of ATAC development? I know they tested a 140mm gun on an upgraded Leopard 2.

I know the US XM291 was designed to be easily converted to fire 120mm ammunition. Had a greater barrel length than the M256, shame that never went anywhere.

The Swiss used a Panzer 87 (a version of the Leopard 2) as a testbed for a 140mm gun, as did the Germans (but this was never built), but this was more comparable to M1 Thumper than anything. IIRC the turret ammo rack was used for projectiles, the hull ammo rack for propellant, and it could store about 18 rounds or so. The intended solution was a new turret which would have a Leopard 2A5 style wedge armor and a 140mm gun with an automatic bustle loader like the Leclerc.

None of the ATAC testbeds (yes, including CATTB) ever evolved far enough to develop a homogenized vision of what a future MBT would actually look like though. That sort of detailed work was supposed to be done in the early to mid-1990's, with production beginning in the late 1990's or early 2000's (the initial service date for M1 Block III was 2003 IOC, the same that the actual M1A2 SEP appeared, which borrowed a lot of thinking from Block III minus the more radical/untenable improvements), and the only reason anyone considered investing in tanks sort of evaporated well before that. The closest you get are a few weird testbeds that look at a few kludged breadboards like VIDS. Any 140mm gun tank from USA would have been an entirely new vehicle that shared only tangential similarities to the M1.

The sole exception to this kludgedness might be the Leclerc 140 which, at the time, had a examination of replacing the bustle loader with a slightly longer for the 140mm rounds and a 140mm gun. The French recently brought it out of the storage lot and gave it a new coat of paint for some reason relating to 130mm I think. But Leclerc was a brand new vehicle in the late 1980's so it's understandable that it would actually accommodate a significant firepower upgrade.

I suppose if Japan had wanted to buy a new tank gun it would have done the same to Type 90, which was similarly brand new.
 
The International program was the US, the UK, France and German. There was a governmental Agreement on a common set of system parameters. Each country developed their own systems to meet these requirements.
Note the UK had two systems - one government sponsered by RARDE and another Private Venture by Royal Ordnance. None of the 140mm systems utilised ETC.

After each country had worked on their own systems there were a couple of combined International Study Programs to look at common systems, i.e. Ordnance assembly, Ammunition, Mounting, Recoil system etc..

In the US there was an ETC variant developed of the 120mm version of XM291 ordnance. Used on the upgraded XM8 Thunderbolt(?) demonstrator.

The other 140mm programs were outside of the above agreement.
Any idea where the Swedish gun for the STRV 2000 was to come from?
 
Yes, it was ETC.

No clue if it was an international standard or a US only gun.

Literally neither of those post say anything of the sort.
Its pretty clear that there was 2 paths going on in the west for the next gen tank gun. A regular 140mm long gun or a etc 120mm gun. The 120mm would have been preferred because of ammunition storage issues, but ect was considered even further away from being ready the liquid storage propelint and there for was probably going to have to wait for the next generation of tanks, and sense the ussr was "days away" from introducing there next gen tank, well 140mm it is.
 
Yes, it was ETC.

No clue if it was an international standard or a US only gun.

Literally neither of those post say anything of the sort.
Its pretty clear that there was 2 paths going on in the west for the next gen tank gun. A regular 140mm long gun or a etc 120mm gun. The 120mm would have been preferred because of ammunition storage issues, but ect was considered even further away from being ready the liquid storage propelint and there for was probably going to have to wait for the next generation of tanks, and sense the ussr was "days away" from introducing there next gen tank, well 140mm it is.
There was planning for an ETC 140mm

 
Considering the actual 140mm FTMA never got off the ground, I don't see a 140mm ETC going anywhere either.
 
Considering the actual 140mm FTMA never got off the ground, I don't see a 140mm ETC going anywhere either.
The experimental 140 was test fired. An ETC version was in the planning.

The weak performance of ETC in practice versus the make-believe theoretical performance would have killed an ETC FTMA all the same?

ETC is a dead end technology. It just took developing it in 120mm instead of 140mm to figure it out. So now we're back to developing a 130-152mm class gun instead. If 140mm FTMA got off the ground, it would have just remained a conventional gun because ETC is not a contender for any future gun, and focus would shift to probably making 140mm a single piece ammo instead of two piece, to have longer LRPs.

140mm's weakest link was the penetrator length limit brought about by two piece ammo, similar to the 2A82 and the L30, in reality.

It would have been slightly longer than the current Rheinmetall 130mm and possibly the same caliber, or larger, like 152mm.
 
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Considering the actual 140mm FTMA never got off the ground, I don't see a 140mm ETC going anywhere either.
The experimental 140 was test fired. An ETC version was in the planning.

The weak performance of ETC in practice versus the make-believe theoretical performance would have killed an ETC FTMA all the same?

ETC is a dead end technology. It just took developing it in 120mm instead of 140mm to figure it out. So now we're back to developing a 130-152mm class gun instead.
Just pointing out the entire XM291 part of the FTMA was not as limited as you made it to be. Intentions & results aren’t always the same but it doesn’t mean the intentions didn’t exist.
 
Considering the actual 140mm FTMA never got off the ground, I don't see a 140mm ETC going anywhere either.
The experimental 140 was test fired. An ETC version was in the planning.

The weak performance of ETC in practice versus the make-believe theoretical performance would have killed an ETC FTMA all the same?

ETC is a dead end technology. It just took developing it in 120mm instead of 140mm to figure it out. So now we're back to developing a 130-152mm class gun instead.
Just pointing out the entire XM291 part of the FTMA was not as limited as you made it to be. Intentions & results aren’t always the same but it doesn’t mean the intentions didn’t exist.

True, and I wasn't aware of the future technology efforts of 140mm being developed into an ETC, admittedly, so TIL.
 
Fascinating...

With, always, the terrible trade-off between ordnance big enough to mission-kill likely targets, and some-how carrying enough of it for a 'running battle'. At least mobile artillery providing 'indirect fire' can usually arrange a 'safe-enough' replenishment meet...

And let's not forget topological issues of some-how getting the necessary big gun into tank turret with room to recoil and reload...

FWIW, I remember an experimental liquid propellant being the McGuffin for Gavin Lyall's 'Uncle Target', when a prototype MBT equipped thus goes missing in Jordanian desert during a coup attempt...

'Liquid Propellant' was mentioned earlier in thread but, like 'caseless rounds', seems stuck the wrong side of 'practicable valley', to mix a metaphor...

As I understand it, no liquid propellant seems to have the necessary combination of energy density and stability. Limitations of former require a much enlarged breech volume, outweighing loading advantage. Latter reminds of T-stoff, S-stoff and their scary ilk...
 
You cotld really do with a propellant/catalyst blend. Carries its own risk though.
 
Considering the actual 140mm FTMA never got off the ground, I don't see a 140mm ETC going anywhere either.
The experimental 140 was test fired. An ETC version was in the planning.

The weak performance of ETC in practice versus the make-believe theoretical performance would have killed an ETC FTMA all the same?

ETC is a dead end technology. It just took developing it in 120mm instead of 140mm to figure it out. So now we're back to developing a 130-152mm class gun instead. If 140mm FTMA got off the ground, it would have just remained a conventional gun because ETC is not a contender for any future gun, and focus would shift to probably making 140mm a single piece ammo instead of two piece, to have longer LRPs.

140mm's weakest link was the penetrator length limit brought about by two piece ammo, similar to the 2A82 and the L30, in reality.

It would have been slightly longer than the current Rheinmetall 130mm and possibly the same caliber, or larger, like 152mm.
Where do you get this information about ETC being a supposed dead-end? I admit the lack of any practical systems so far has been a bit disappointing but I don't think that makes it a write-off.

Even with the two-piece ammunition it looks like the dart would be quite a bit longer than what is achievable from the 120mm. I'd be interested to see a size comparison with the ammunition from the new Rheinmetall 130mm gun.

I don't see a switch to a high velocity 152mm or similar caliber as offering very much here. Carrying enough 130mm or 140mm shells will be a challenge going larger just makes that problem worse.
 
Considering the actual 140mm FTMA never got off the ground, I don't see a 140mm ETC going anywhere either.
The experimental 140 was test fired. An ETC version was in the planning.

The weak performance of ETC in practice versus the make-believe theoretical performance would have killed an ETC FTMA all the same?

ETC is a dead end technology. It just took developing it in 120mm instead of 140mm to figure it out. So now we're back to developing a 130-152mm class gun instead. If 140mm FTMA got off the ground, it would have just remained a conventional gun because ETC is not a contender for any future gun, and focus would shift to probably making 140mm a single piece ammo instead of two piece, to have longer LRPs.

140mm's weakest link was the penetrator length limit brought about by two piece ammo, similar to the 2A82 and the L30, in reality.

It would have been slightly longer than the current Rheinmetall 130mm and possibly the same caliber, or larger, like 152mm.
Where do you get this information about ETC being a supposed dead-end?

The fact that M8 Lightning Bolt fired enough rounds for people to figure out the only measurable gains to be had were slightly more consistent pressure curves given a wider range of ambient temperatures.

If you think ETC isn't dead I suggest you approach Rheinmetall and tell them about it. They'll be very interested in hearing from you considering they and United Defense did substantial work on the subject a mere 20 years ago (which might as well be 20 minutes in tank technology time) and discerned that a larger caliber gun was the only viable method of improving muzzle energy of a given penetrator.

Otherwise the issue is two fold: pressure can't be ramped up enough with merely adding newer hotter propellants and more consistent detonation of propellant in the barrel isn't the actual issue. We're at the point that a 85,000 psi gun can't easily get much more pressure into it without building an entirely new gun because the case is maxed out, and at that point you might as well consider a new lot of ammunition to boot, not the least to keep the pressure at 85,000 psi instead of trying to make it even hotter.

105mm was completely tapped out after 50 years too. So has 120mm now. I'd expect to see 130mm tapped out sometime around 2070 and a new gun show up in 2090 if there are tank engineers still around to make them.

I don't see a switch to a high velocity 152mm or similar caliber as offering very much here. Carrying enough 130mm or 140mm shells will be a challenge going larger just makes that problem worse.

Yes this is accurate. Tanks no longer fight each other. They now fight houses and machine guns in support of light infantry.

Tradition: returned.

Tanks stopped consuming large quantities of ammunition in the 1980's because the primary driver of ammunition, bracketing, disappeared with modern fire control systems. Even 20 rounds seems a bit excessive these days, given the paucity of tank engagements, and 30 rounds was more than enough in 1991 for the largest armored battle since Kursk.

Conversely, machine gun ammo seems to never be in enough supply.

Future tanks with a dozen and a half rounds of 152mm of two natures (GP and sabot) and 20-30,000 rounds of machine gun ammo would probably be in adequate supply of both types of ammunition tbh. Not that that would happen, mostly since 120mm is perfectly fine for the moment, but it would be closer to the mark for actual ammo consumption over the past two or three or so generations of American soldiers.

Or we might see a return of female and male (sorry, infantry support and mobile gun) tanks (systems). Well we already see that, but more explicitly I guess. An Puma-esque IFV carrying a 120mm gun with a 10-20 rounds in a bustle loader and like 30,000 rounds of machine gun ammo for three separate .30 cal turret-blisters is probably a more and better tank for actual use in real wars than a M1 Abrams or Leo 2 with a 130mm tbh. Rafael's Carmel is shaping up to be that way, and is even platform agnostic at the end, so it can probably have systems retrofitted to older and less modern vehicles like Merkava IV.
 
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Considering the actual 140mm FTMA never got off the ground, I don't see a 140mm ETC going anywhere either.
The experimental 140 was test fired. An ETC version was in the planning.

The weak performance of ETC in practice versus the make-believe theoretical performance would have killed an ETC FTMA all the same?

ETC is a dead end technology. It just took developing it in 120mm instead of 140mm to figure it out. So now we're back to developing a 130-152mm class gun instead. If 140mm FTMA got off the ground, it would have just remained a conventional gun because ETC is not a contender for any future gun, and focus would shift to probably making 140mm a single piece ammo instead of two piece, to have longer LRPs.

140mm's weakest link was the penetrator length limit brought about by two piece ammo, similar to the 2A82 and the L30, in reality.

It would have been slightly longer than the current Rheinmetall 130mm and possibly the same caliber, or larger, like 152mm.
Where do you get this information about ETC being a supposed dead-end?

The fact that M8 Lightning Bolt fired enough rounds for people to figure out the only measurable gains to be had were slightly more consistent pressure curves given a wider range of ambient temperatures.

If you think ETC isn't dead I suggest you approach Rheinmetall and tell them about it. They'll be very interested in hearing from you considering they and United Defense did substantial work on the subject a mere 20 years ago (which might as well be 20 minutes in tank technology time) and discerned that a larger caliber gun was the only viable method of improving muzzle energy of a given penetrator.

Otherwise the issue is two fold: pressure can't be ramped up enough with merely adding newer hotter propellants and more consistent detonation of propellant in the barrel isn't the actual issue. We're at the point that a 85,000 psi gun can't easily get much more pressure into it without building an entirely new gun because the case is maxed out, and at that point you might as well consider a new lot of ammunition to boot, not the least to keep the pressure at 85,000 psi instead of trying to make it even hotter.

105mm was completely tapped out after 50 years too. So has 120mm now. I'd expect to see 130mm tapped out sometime around 2070 and a new gun show up in 2090 if there are tank engineers still around to make them.

I don't see a switch to a high velocity 152mm or similar caliber as offering very much here. Carrying enough 130mm or 140mm shells will be a challenge going larger just makes that problem worse.

Yes this is accurate. Tanks no longer fight each other. They now fight houses and machine guns in support of light infantry.

Tradition: returned.

Tanks stopped consuming large quantities of ammunition in the 1980's because the primary driver of ammunition, bracketing, disappeared with modern fire control systems. Even 20 rounds seems a bit excessive these days, given the paucity of tank engagements, and 30 rounds was more than enough in 1991 for the largest armored battle since Kursk.

Conversely, machine gun ammo seems to never be in enough supply.

Future tanks with a dozen and a half rounds of 152mm of two natures (GP and sabot) and 20-30,000 rounds of machine gun ammo would probably be in adequate supply of both types of ammunition tbh. Not that that would happen, mostly since 120mm is perfectly fine for the moment, but it would be closer to the mark for actual ammo consumption over the past two or three or so generations of American soldiers.

Or we might see a return of female and male (sorry, infantry support and mobile gun) tanks (systems). Well we already see that, but more explicitly I guess. An Puma-esque IFV carrying a 120mm gun with a 10-20 rounds in a bustle loader and like 30,000 rounds of machine gun ammo for three separate .30 cal turret-blisters is probably a more and better tank for actual use in real wars than a M1 Abrams or Leo 2 with a 130mm tbh. Rafael's Carmel is shaping up to be that way, and is even platform agnostic at the end, so it can probably have systems retrofitted to older and less modern vehicles like Merkava IV.
Seriously? The m8 was a prototype, and not a very good one. everybody, including Rheinmetall btw, are still working on it. Its turned out a lot harder to get working in practice then was anticipated, but it has absolutely shown to improve penintration. And tanks stoped useing a larg amount of ammo? Have you heard about desert storm? Because I sertenly remember the reloads that happened then and it would have been hard to pull that off agenst the Soviets. Tanks are always going to use a lot of ammunition even with moder sites, hell we still use a lot of PGM's and there a hell of a lot more accurate then tank shells ever can be.

Honestly the reason it hasn't been done yet is because tank development froze in 1991 only slowly started to thaw in 2014 and is now going to freeze again thanks to the no show of the Armata. China doesn't seem interested in new tank developments so unless indea and Pakistan really want to start there own cold war i suspect the regular old 120mm is going to remain with us until 2100.
 
ETC so good Rheinmetall isn't making a 130mm gun with twice as much propellant for the MGCS?

Lightning Bolt had a perfectly functional ETC gun. It was just somewhat bulky, but it still worked lol. All of the conclusion information from the Lightning Bolt paper was about reducing the size of the power bank using new technology, namely rapid charging and high discharge capacitors, not that the ETC gun underperformed or that it somehow didn't perform as designed. The point was that theoretical gains of ME for ETC were irrelevant.

What you got, essentially, was a cleaner burn and faster ignition. This doesn't translate to improved muzzle energies; it does translate to slightly better dispersion at range (less time between FCS fire signal and divergence of gun within the fire window) and slightly better performance across ambient temperature extremes (it'll shoot without substantial ME losses in frozen Siberia as well as it does in Iraq).

Conversely the results were so disappointing on the ME front that 130mm gun came back.

Of course, MGCS might be killed due to lack of functional opponents, or maybe Europe will fracture in the coming decades between UK/Poland and France/Germany again and give impetus to make new battle tanks.

Either way the wind blows, future tank guns may use ETC, simply because it provides better ambient temperature burn characteristics and a faster ignition, which can be helpful in extremely long range engagements (>5 km) against tanks; but that implies that tanks will fight other tanks in the future. This is increasingly less likely as in current events, we see that artillery and aviation are still the main killers of main battle tanks.

But using ETC as a replacement for larger caliber tank guns to improve armor penetration is off the table. Now and probably forever.
 
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ETC so good Rheinmetall isn't making a 130mm gun with twice as much propellant for the MGCS?

Lightning Bolt had a perfectly functional ETC gun. It was just somewhat bulky, but it still worked lol. All of the conclusion information from the Lightning Bolt paper was about reducing the size of the power bank using new technology, namely rapid charging and high discharge capacitors, not that the ETC gun underperformed or that it somehow didn't perform as designed. The point was that theoretical gains of ME for ETC were irrelevant.

What you got, essentially, was a cleaner burn and faster ignition. This doesn't translate to improved muzzle energies; it does translate to slightly better dispersion at range (less time between FCS fire signal and divergence of gun within the fire window) and slightly better performance across ambient temperature extremes (it'll shoot without substantial ME losses in frozen Siberia as well as it does in Iraq).

Conversely the results were so disappointing on the ME front that 130mm gun came back.

Of course, MGCS might be killed due to lack of functional opponents, or maybe Europe will fracture in the coming decades between UK/Poland and France/Germany again and give impetus to make new battle tanks.

Either way the wind blows, future tank guns may use ETC, simply because it provides better ambient temperature burn characteristics and a faster ignition, which can be helpful in extremely long range engagements (>5 km) against tanks; but that implies that tanks will fight other tanks in the future. This is increasingly less likely as in current events, we see that artillery and aviation are still the main killers of main battle tanks.

But using ETC as a replacement for larger caliber tank guns to improve armor penetration is off the table. Now and probably forever.
A) the Thunderbolt deminstrator wasn't perfectly functional i have no idea why you think that.
B) even then it showed improved energy output to the lower end of what a 140mm can do
C) why do you keep talking about the 130mm like it means something? For one they have already moved back to a 140mm for the exact same reasons they worked on it back in the 90's so maby get your facts straight. and second there still working on ect, there working on a regular gun as well because ect isn't ready yet for a bunch of reasons and thanks to the Russian economy exploding again probably isn't going to get the funding to bring it out of the lab until the end of the century.
 
A) It was functional enough. The main concerns were related to building up and discharging enough energy fast enough, not to the gun itself.
B) Guess 130mm isn't necessary, but then why did "make the gun bigger" come after all these ETC experiments failed? 16 MJ also isn't "low end 140mm". It isn't even in the same ballpark. It's literally a single digit percentage improvement over DM73. Roughly about 8-9%. Turns out all the ME gains of ETC were achieved more or less completely by using slightly hotter propellants in the existing tungsten sabot rounds.
C) The only people bringing out museum pieces like ATAC are the French. Which are now owned by Rheinmetall. I wonder what MGCS will use.

Regardless, if "they've" moved back to 140mm, that sort of proves the point.
 
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Future tanks with a dozen and a half rounds of 152mm of two natures (GP and sabot) and 20-30,000 rounds of machine gun ammo would probably be in adequate supply of both types of ammunition tbh. Not that that would happen, mostly since 120mm is perfectly fine for the moment, but it would be closer to the mark for actual ammo consumption over the past two or three or so generations of American soldiers.

Or we might see a return of female and male (sorry, infantry support and mobile gun) tanks (systems). Well we already see that, but more explicitly I guess. An Puma-esque IFV carrying a 120mm gun with a 10-20 rounds in a bustle loader and like 30,000 rounds of machine gun ammo for three separate .30 cal turret-blisters is probably a more and better tank for actual use in real wars than a M1 Abrams or Leo 2 with a 130mm tbh. Rafael's Carmel is shaping up to be that way, and is even platform agnostic at the end, so it can probably have systems retrofitted to older and less modern vehicles like Merkava IV.
Female tanks? BMPT aside, the popularity of IFVs with fire control and sensors matching MBTs is filling the need. The 120mm is already too big for most targets when airburst autocannon enables reasonable amount of stored killed in highly volume constrained vehicles like IFVs.

We don't see larger guns on MBTs despite all the technical issues having been solved is as it is too specialized. A really large, velocity maximizing gun would have shells that is overkill against almost all non-tank targets while having shot counts that matches ATGM stores. It'd be a tank destroyer/heavy tank in the classical ww2 sense. Developing such a vehicle would have worst effects on stopping opponent tanks than maintaining effective ATGM as it goes on all platforms (including MBTs, if one is Norks that can't develop modern guns) in all formations across conflict scales (down to proxy if not terrorists and up to "no logistics" post apoc) unless cost effective ATGM overmatch simply can not be maintained. Given how decades of ship-missile, aircraft-missile conflict worked out, I don't think cost effective defenses outmatching missile offense is on the table especially when missile mass is not tightly constrained, ie vehicle mounted. Kinetic kill missile means ATGM is the superset of capability relative to guns. Improvement in electronics and sensors that enable defenses also enable cheaper missiles so it'd take unseen novel technology to change the relative positions.

The past decades of warfare have shown that tank on tank combat is rare while tank on infantry combat is common.

Considering the slugfest that was the Syrian civil war, I think a modern super-armored heavy tank might be better than "MBTs" for most forces. Get gun back to low velocity 105mm affairs and put everything into protection to enable good survivability against RPGs and ATGMs.

It is not likely a weaker power can use MBTs to deter a superior power. A Weaker power can have a very hard time maintaining air defenses, keeping up with tank arms race against a larger budget or maintain skills of large scale joint operations. Asymmetric force structure on the other hand have show successes.
 
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I suppose if Japan had wanted to buy a new tank gun it would have done the same to Type 90, which was similarly brand new.
Japan actually had a 135mm gun in the early 80s. It didn't really go anywhere as it was a a private venture by Daikin and the awkward caliber is likely because they got around to it before everyone else decided on 140mm. I would imagine that had 140mm taken off, it would've been adapted to match NATO specs.
 
I suppose if Japan had wanted to buy a new tank gun it would have done the same to Type 90, which was similarly brand new.
Japan actually had a 135mm gun in the early 80s. It didn't really go anywhere as it was a a private venture by Daikin and the awkward caliber is likely because they got around to it before everyone else decided on 140mm. I would imagine that had 140mm taken off, it would've been adapted to match NATO specs.
hi! Any sourse about 135 mm?
 
The big problem I have with these very large weapons is not even the weight increase which will beggar the armour side of the triad, more the reduction in ammo capacity and spiral of reduced ability. Have we not learned from certain WW2 experience?
 
I suppose if Japan had wanted to buy a new tank gun it would have done the same to Type 90, which was similarly brand new.
Japan actually had a 135mm gun in the early 80s. It didn't really go anywhere as it was a a private venture by Daikin and the awkward caliber is likely because they got around to it before everyone else decided on 140mm. I would imagine that had 140mm taken off, it would've been adapted to match NATO specs.
hi! Any sourse about 135 mm?
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There isn't a whole lot of info on it online, but there was an interview with Masanori Kanagi who was the general manager of the defense R&D division at Daikin. Daikin makes all of the Japanese ammo and did some work on some cannons. Like everyone else building 140mm cannons, they saw that Russia was looking at upping the caliber of their tanks to 135/152mm. They started working on a 135mm gun in anticipation for the new tank that was under development. They managed to test it, but the initial specs for the Type 90 came out and it called for a 120mm. ATLA didn't want to be using a gun with different ammo than what America was using, so Daikin ended up downsizing the 135mm gun into the 120mm gun that ended up on the first 2 prototypes.
 
With the performance of tanks in the Ukraine it would seem like 140mm is too much too late. The big tank gun is probably going the way of the battleship main guns. Niche. Good bye big gun. Hello cold-launch VLS.
 
The big problem I have with these very large weapons is not even the weight increase which will beggar the armour side of the triad, more the reduction in ammo capacity and spiral of reduced ability. Have we not learned from certain WW2 experience?

15-20 ready rounds seemed plenty for main battle tanks like M1 in Desert Storm.

With the performance of tanks in the Ukraine it would seem like 140mm is too much too late. The big tank gun is probably going the way of the battleship main guns. Niche. Good bye big gun. Hello cold-launch VLS.

Big guns are necessary for breaching masonry walls, destroying strongpoints, and supporting light infantry in the assault.

But that was their purpose. Killing other tanks is a historic aberration.
 
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