RN Francesco Caracciolo

[red admiral]

First post of a long topic about Italian battleship Francesco Caracciolo and the many designs for her in 1914-1919.

A quick summary;
A-series with 12x381mm guns
B-series unknown?
C-series definitive Caracciolo with 8x381mm guns in duples. What was actually built (but not finished)
D-series with 12x381mm guns in 3 quadruples
F-series with 8x381mm guns in 2 quadruples
G-series with 16x381mm guns in 4 quadruples

A few pieces of fictional artwork as well, if completed, if updated in 1930s etc.

 

[red admiral]

After building the Cavour and Duilio class battleships in 1910-1912, the Regia Marina had a bit of a puase before continuing with construction of new ships. Various designs were considered with 280mm,305mm, 343mm, 356mm, 381mm and 406mm, but development focused on the 381mm gunned version.

In 1914 4 ships were laid down,
Francesco Caracciolo
Cristoforto Columbo
Marcantonio Colonna
Francesco Morosini

This final design had the following particulars

Displacement 34,000tons legend
212m x 29.6m x 9.5m
20 Yarrow boilers, oil firing, 4 Parsons Turbines driving 4 propellors
105,000shp giving 28knts
Range of 8000nm @ 10knts with 1800tons of oil
Armour
300mm - 220mm - 150mm belt
51mm deck
400mm turret faces, 300mm barbettes
Armament
8x381mm/40 in duples, 12x152/45, 12x100/47, 12x40/39

Images;
Francesco Caracciolo in various stages of completion in 1915

 

[red admiral]

D-series ships with 12x381mm guns in quadruple turrets

Displacement c. 35000tons
Speed between 25/27knts
Protection 270mm external belt, 150mm internal belt, deck unknown

Armament
D 16x170mm, 20x100/47
D' 12x170mm, 16x100/47
D'' 16x170mm, 22x100/47
D''' 24x100/47
D bis, 12x170mm, 30x100/47

 

[red admiral]

D''' and D bis images

 

[red admiral]

F-series with 8x381mm guns in 2 quadruple turrets

F
30,000tons
25/27knts
protection same
16x170mm, 24x100mm

F'
32,000tons
29/31knts
protection same
16x170mm, 24x100mm

 

[Grey Havoc]

Any idea as to why the Francesco Caracciolo was cancelled?

 

[Hoo-2b-2day]

These ships wer first suspened due to WW1 and when hostilties were over the design was outdated as well as Italy being unable to fund the completion of these ships. The name ships hull lingered around into the 1920's being considered for converion to a merchant ship or latter an aircraft carrier, but the money was not available so ended up being scrapped.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Makes sense. Any idea what major Naval, or more likely Army, project was competing for the same resources as the Francesco Caracciolo construction in 1916? Or was it just a general drain on/shortage of resources that caused a practically completed warship to be shelved?

 

[Tzoli]

Are you sure are those secondary guns are 170mm? There were no such calibre in use in the Regina Marina, only 152mm, 190mm and 203mm at that time.
Even the 152mm guns were of old British ones of the 6inch EOC QF Mark I on the Garibaldi class Armoured Cruiser which also used the 203mm EOC Pattern W, while the San Giorgo the 190mm Model 1908 guns.

 

[Frankthebuilder]

First post of a long topic about Italian battleship Francesco Caracciolo and the many designs for her in 1914-1919.

A quick summary;
A-series with 12x381mm guns
B-series unknown?
C-series definitive Caracciolo with 8x381mm guns in duples. What was actually built (but not finished)
D-series with 12x381mm guns in 3 quadruples
F-series with 8x381mm guns in 2 quadruples
G-series with 16x381mm guns in 4 quadruples

A few pieces of fictional artwork as well, if completed, if updated in 1930s etc.

Ho dear Friends
Here my art concepts of the battleship Caracciolo what if completed by 1919

 

[T-50]

First post of a long topic about Italian battleship Francesco Caracciolo and the many designs for her in 1914-1919.

A quick summary;
A-series with 12x381mm guns
B-series unknown?
C-series definitive Caracciolo with 8x381mm guns in duples. What was actually built (but not finished)
D-series with 12x381mm guns in 3 quadruples
F-series with 8x381mm guns in 2 quadruples
G-series with 16x381mm guns in 4 quadruples

A few pieces of fictional artwork as well, if completed, if updated in 1930s etc.

Ho dear Friends
Here my art concepts of the battleship Caracciolo what if completed by 1919

View attachment 652339

Very nice artwork.this ship would be very impressive if it was realy build!

 

[Tzoli]

Nice looking drawing though it is sad that it's such low resolution one you uploaded

 

[GianmarcoBianchi]

such guns were similar to RN 381mm/42 guns. They were designed for F. Caracciolo class, but there are seldom reliable references showcasing their exact turret looks. Any helpful info?

 

[warspite]

You might have seen this already, but NavWeaps has this: http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNIT_15-40_m1914.php

 

[GianmarcoBianchi]

You might have seen this already, but NavWeaps has this: http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNIT_15-40_m1914.php

this issue is not on its performance, but its turret plan, not the monitor one. Was that study finished?

 

[Tzoli]

The best you can get:
https://stefsap.wordpress.com/2017/12/14/rn-francesco-caracciolo-1919-design/
https://naval-encyclopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/carracciolo-finaldesign1919.jpeg
And
https://www.destinationsjourney.com...aphs/italian-battleship-francesco-caracciolo/

 

[Tzoli]

From my collection:

 

[warspite]

Some interesting pics, including a couple of the guns emplaced in land-based turrets, There LOOK like the planned shipboard turrets, but I can't confirm that they are identical: https://www.destinationsjourney.com...aphs/italian-battleship-francesco-caracciolo/

 

[Arjen]

From my collection:

Schlachtschiffe und Schlachtkreuzer 1905-1970 by Siegfried Breyer, Pawlak 1970.

 

[Tzoli]

Until official plans are found which seems rarer then even French ship plans this is the best we can offer.

 

[Dorknought]

such guns were similar to RN 381mm/42 guns. They were designed for F. Caracciolo class, but there are seldom reliable references showcasing their exact turret looks. Any helpful info?

Maybe some Italian works:
https://www.associazionelagunari.it/notizia_libro_batteria_amalfi.htm

Some other pictures
https://www.lavocedelmarinaio.com/2012/05/aprite-le-finestre-marino-miccoli/

and the Cannone navale da 381/40 page:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannone_navale_da_381/40

It would be interesting to see how much it differed from the 15" twin in the RN.

 

[GianmarcoBianchi]

Maybe some Italian works:
https://www.associazionelagunari.it/notizia_libro_batteria_amalfi.htm

Some other pictures
https://www.lavocedelmarinaio.com/2012/05/aprite-le-finestre-marino-miccoli/

and the Cannone navale da 381/40 page:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannone_navale_da_381/40

It would be interesting to see how much it differed from the 15" twin in the RN.

I know there is an Amalfi battery. But is that turret originally for Caracciolo? I keep skeptical ideas.

 

[GianmarcoBianchi]

Until official plans are found which seems rarer then even French ship plans this is the best we can offer.

How odd it is! Fancy that an officially building capital ship lost her details of main weapons.

 

[Tzoli]

How odd it is! Fancy that an officially building capital ship lost her details of main weapons.

Not necessary lost, just nobody scanned it yet or uploaded them on the net.
But it's not out of possibilities. Italy was bombed in WW2, documents can be destroyed then, Burocratic idioticy can cause such iccidents as well (I look at the USN/US Government and the plans and design documents of the Montanas! )

 

[Dorknought]

I know there is an Amalfi battery. But is that turret originally for Caracciolo? I keep skeptical ideas.

I think on balance, that is a modified naval turret given that it was built during WWI and they probably had what was at hand. It does bear more than a passing resemblance of the turrets on the Caracciolo plans and the style of Italian 12" turrets. The later twin turrets were specifically designed for land use and had loading through the rear, not by a 'naval style' hoist like the Almafi turret.

 

[mirco1961]

This is the plan of the 'Amalfi' turret. the turret was completely different from the one planned for the Caracciolo

 

[Phoenix_jz]

Unfortunately there is not much in the way of details.

From Ansaldo's online photo archives, there is this general representation of the 381/40 turret on a ship:


For some measure of comparison:

There is also a photo of a 381/40 turret under assembly at Stabilimento Artiglierie di Cornigliano. The source claims it is from 1917, but I think it may be a year earlier than that - I'm fairly sure this is the turret used by the armed pontoon Faà di Bruno:

 

[GianmarcoBianchi]

Unfortunately there is not much in the way of details.

From Ansaldo's online photo archives, there is this general representation of the 381/40 turret on a ship:
View attachment 810761

For some measure of comparison:
View attachment 810788
There is also a photo of a 381/40 turret under assembly at Stabilimento Artiglierie di Cornigliano. The source claims it is from 1917, but I think it may be a year earlier than that - I'm fairly sure this is the turret used by the armed pontoon Faà di Bruno:

View attachment 810771

I think that was only the lining part of the turret.

 

[McTodd]

There is also a photo of a 381/40 turret under assembly at Stabilimento Artiglierie di Cornigliano. The source claims it is from 1917, but I think it may be a year earlier than that - I'm fairly sure this is the turret used by the armed pontoon Faà di Bruno:

View attachment 810771

Yes, definitely the turret for the Faa di Bruno monitor/pontoon. I don't think it can be considered in any way as representative of how the Francesco Caracciolo's turrets would have appeared.

 

[Dorknought]

Yes, definitely the turret for the Faa di Bruno monitor/pontoon. I don't think it can be considered in any way as representative of how the Francesco Caracciolo's turrets would have appeared.

I agree, 700-800tons of battleship turret on a 2,800 ton monitor wouldn't be a great idea.

 

[Phoenix_jz]

I don't think it can be considered in any way as representative of how the Francesco Caracciolo's turrets would have appeared.

Yes, exactly. The whole barbette stalk structure would be completely different.

 

[Phoenix_jz]

Revisiting this thread as I had a bit of an epiphany when answering a question on discord.

It is entirely possible - and quite probable - that there are multiple turret designs for the Caracciolo-class, at least in terms of external shaping.

There were in fact two different versions of the 305mm two-gun and three-gun turrets used on the earlier Italian dreadnoughts - the Armstrong-Pozzuoli built turrets (Dante Alighieri, Giulio Cesare, Duilio) being of a more angular shape while the Vickers/Vickers-Terni turrets (Conte di Cavour, Leonardo da Vinci, Andrea Doria) were much rounder, overall.

Spoiler: 305/56 Turret Examples:

Bearing this in mind - most line drawings show Francesco Caracciolo with more angular turret shapes. Caracciolo, along with Francesco Morosini, was to have featured guns and turrets built by Armstrong-Pozzuoli.

The turret for Batteria Amalfi is however much more rounded and smooth in shape... and its guns and turret were pulled from those under production for Marcantonio Colonna, which were being built by Vickers-Terni.

Occam's razor suggests that Batteria Amalfi's turret design is different because the turret design from Vickers-Terni for Colonna was of a different shape to those produced by Armstrong-Pozzuoli for the first and fourth ships. This would perfectly match up with the differences in appearance for the turrets on the Italian 305mm dreadnoughts.

The real wild card, perhaps, is what the turrets for Cristoforo Colombo may have looked like - as those were to be built by Ansaldo, featuring the Ansaldo-Schneider monobloc 381/40's.