Italian battleship design after Littorio?

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In UK we know Lion after KGV
In USA we know Montana after Iowa
In French and German we know Alsace and H class
In Japan we know super Yamato and a150 series

And how about Italian battleship after Littorio class?
 
And how about Italian battleship after Littorio class?
There are no successors, they were the last designed battleship for Italy and there are couple mentions of their preliminary plans with 16" guns and an export 45000 tons battleship for Soviet (Project UP.41).
Forgot, modified Littorio for Spanish navy and another export Littorio (various with either 15" or 16" guns) for Argentina navy.
 
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And a modified Littorio for Spain with Spanish twin 12cm DP-AA guns.
 
There are no successors
Definitely.

Regia Marina had plans only to acquire (eventually) further Littorios rather than having a brand new class.
Even if it would difficult to manage enough resources to mantain more than the four originally planned (Littorio, Vittorio Veneto, Roma and Impero).
 
And how about Italian battleship after Littorio class?

Speculatively, they would most likely design enlarged Littorio with 16-inch guns and dual-purpose battery. Essentially what they wanted (but envisioned problems with 16-inch gun development caused them to switch to 15-inch high-velocity one).
 
In UK we know Lion after KGV
In USA we know Montana after Iowa
In French and German we know Alsace and H class
In Japan we know super Yamato and a150 series

And how about Italian battleship after Littorio class?
The last prewar mid term construction plan provided for 2 more Littorios bringing the total to 6 and excluding any chance of a new class at least until 1945. In 1939 discussions were ongoing on a potential third London conference and the internal memos on the subject clearly reflected the view of the RM on larger battleship: Italy had a larger naval industry than France and so could have hoped to compete in number but a far smaller economy and steel production and so could not have hoped to compete on the individual capabilities of the ships should them have grown much bigger. So the official Italian position in the planned 1940 naval conference would have been that 40000 ton should have been the maximum displacement allowed. At the same time the Italian Navy noted the strong tendency to the grow in the size of the battleships and prepared herself accordingly, by making preliminary studies of a 16" gun battleship with a strong emphasis on long range operation, much like an Italian H-39, and by building an extra size drydock in Taranto. Both reflected the perceived inevitability of future larger battleships but their actual built was quite far in the future and viewed very reluctantly.
 
I can only highlight/expand on what ceccherini stated above.

The RM did develop a design for something past the Littorio-class, but was not exactly highly enthused about building more and larger battleships. In particular Admiral Cavagnari, who was the navy's Chief of Staff and Undersecretary of the Navy at the time, was very conservative on this matter and did not want to do anything other than order more of an already proven design that could be built rapidly - which was a reasonable stance, considering that Impero and Roma were fairly rapid builds (if not for the fact that Impero was moved from Genoa, she would have been completed in August 1941, and would have become operational before the end of the year).

As far as what design was actually being worked on - the navy had actually been working on a design since 1935 that could have 'succeeded' the Littorio-class, should the navy decide to move in that direction, and was developed in the context of the infamous 'Breakout Fleet' program of 1935/36. This was intended to be a 41,000-ton standard displacement battleship armed with 3x3 406mm guns, 4x3 152/55, four aircraft with a covered hangar, and a top speed of 32 knots - which very rapidly grew to a 42,000-ton ship.

This design, as it was in 1935, is what ended up being used by Ansaldo's project office as the basis for the design of the 'UP.41', a derivative design developed for the Soviet Union through to mid-1936. In the meantime, the RM continued to develop the design from 1935 up to the summer 1941, when all work on the design ended for good. The design had grown over time, much as was the case with the Littorio-class (and even went through some of the same evolutions, such as the replacement of the planned 100/47 AA battery with the 90/50 in 1936), and so ended up at a displacement of 45,000 tons by 1939.

The degree to which the design was ever seriously considered for procurement is limited. Not many secondary sources bother to report the exact composition of the 'B' programme of the 1935/36 'Breakout Fleet', which was the most radical version, calling for nine battleships and three aircraft carriers. However, Enrico Cernuschi & Vincent O'Hara in their article on the subject in Warship 2006 ('The Breakout Fleet: The Oceanic Programmes of the Regia Marina, 1934-1940) report that this version of the program hoped to procure two of these ships, alongside a trio of smaller 17,500-ton 'pocket battleships'. These would be added to the existing force then building of the two Littorio-class battleships and the two Conte di Cavour-class battleships then under reconstruction. The conventional battleships would operate in the Mediterranean, while the 17,500-ton ships would be based in East Africa as an independent raiding force (along with supporting ships). All ships should have been procured by the end of 1942.

This plan was presented to Mussolini, but went nowhere due to the great expense. The 'backup' program ('Programme A'), which also failed to gain approval, only called for six battleships (and no carriers) - according to Augusto de Toro, this plan saw only six battleships being reached by the order of a single additional Littorio, and the reconstruction of Duilio or Andrea Doria, in order to create two homogenous divisions of three battleships. The end-date for this program was still 1942.

The next time the question of battleship procurement came up, it was 1937, and it does not seem that the larger 406mm battleship was raised for consideration at all. Early in the year another long-term plan was drawn up, intending to outline naval procurement from FY1937/38 to FY1943/44. This called for a force of eight battleships and 'three' carriers (actually only two 15,000-ton carriers, in addition to the 4,880-ton seaplane carrier Giuseppe Miraglia). At no point that I am aware was the '41,000-ton' battleship raised as an option - the planning assumptions were always that an extra pair of Littorio-class battleships would be procured, and the reconstruction of the Duilio-class battleships initiated. The light cruiser force should have also reached 20 ships totaling 120,600 tons (standard displacement) via the construction of six additional Duca degli Abruzzi-class light cruisers (plus eight scout ships of 2,500 to 4,000 tons, but I'm not sure if those were counted under light cruisers or with the scouts). Such as it was, this program was not executed, though battleship construction policy did effectively follow this program - at the end of the year, Impero and Roma were ordered, as was the reconstruction of Duilio and Andrea Doria. Additionally, the twelve oceanic scouts/light cruisers of the Capitani Romani and sixteen oceanic submarines were ordered, all coming under the aegis of the FY1937/38 program and 1938 supplemental program (which sort of ate any prospect of a separate FY1938/39 program).

The last time the '41,000-ton' battleship seemed to get a chance at being ordered was in 1939. Early that year was the last gasp of any major fleet plans, namely one that sought to outline construction from FY1939/40 to FY1944/45. This hoped to procure a pair of battleships of 45,000 tons, two 15,000 ton carriers, twenty 2,100-ton destroyers, twenty 1,000-ton torpedo boats, and some 60 submarines. Admiral Somigli was apparently in favor of it, while Cavagnari preferred the prospect of ordering a third pair of Littorio's instead, but in any case the concept of ordering two new battleships quickly fell apart as tensions rose in Europe and the reality of Italy's shortfalls of raw material imports bit. In any case, the navy seemed to place a higher priority on procuring a pair of 15,000-ton carriers than on new battleships - the navy's planning office had in fact been requesting the two ships each year since the 1935/36 programs. These were ultimately pushed back to the FY1940/41 program (which obviously never materialized), and it was hoped that the ships could be laid down in the following year or two and commission in 1943 and 1944.

Such as it was, the actual FY1939/40 program, approved in April 1939, was split into two parts.
  • To reinforce the fleet; twelve '1,500-ton' destroyers (enhanced Soldati with a dual-purpose armament), twelve 635t medium submarines, and six 1,100t minelayers.
  • To form a raiding force that would operate out of Italian East Africa and attack British and French traffic in the Indian Ocean; three light cruisers of the '8,000-ton' Costanzo Ciano-class, two 8,500-ton fast oilers, twelve 1,350t oceanic submarines, and six destroyer escorts to protect the planned base at Chisimaio (evolved Orsa/Pegaso types, with diesel propulsion).
Such as it was, the FY1939/40 program was never executed, though nor was it officially canceled - some of the flotilla ships and submarines ended up being ordered later as part of wartime programs intended increase the navy's escort capacity, or to replace losses of destroyers, escorts, and submarines.

-----

Stepping beyond the bounds of what actually happened, and towards summary and speculation - in broad strokes, though the potential construction of a 45,000-ton ship was not exactly ruled out, the RM as a whole was not really in favor of it, so long as existing battleships were adequate to their needs - flatly speaking, they had areas that needed reinforcing more than the main battleline. The navy's planning office was adamant about the need for carriers (even if Cavagnari was far less enthusiastic about them), and likewise also desperately wanted a larger force of modern destroyers (by which they meant ships of the Maestrale-class and later) suitable for escorting the additional battleships that had been procured after the modern cruiser program. If not for the crisis in supplies of raw materials and the tension in Europe in 1939, I strongly suspect that the navy would have ordered carriers in FY1939/40 or FY1940/41 and tried to complete both of them before 1944. By necessity these would have had to have taken up two of the three slips available for capital ship construction in Italy. Of course, neither of these conditions were filled, hence why it did not happen in reality.

That said, the wildcard in any scenario favorable to further Italian capital ship construction is future European construction. The Regia Marina was hoping that the upcoming disarmament conference in 1940 would result in a limit of 40,000 tons for battleships. So long as the rest of Europe remained by that limit, Italy's position of maintaining their battleship force of 'only' Littorio's - '35,000' ships that were 40,500 tons standard in reality - would have been perfectly valid. After all, at the time the French were only ordering additional '35,000-ton' ships of their own (Clemenceau & Gascogne), and the new British battleships of the 1938 programme were 40,000-ton ships (Lion & Temeraire).

This vision was very flawed, however. They made this assumption based on their discussions with the Germans about coordinating future capital ship constructions, and the Germans were lying through their teeth the entire time. They made the Italians aware of the planned H-39 battleships in early 1939, but informed them that they were for one or two 40,000-ton battleships. The actual scale of the program - Plan Z - called for six 52,600-ton battleships.

France, who had long been Italy's main concern for naval construction (and vice versa), had largely drawn the same conclusions as Italy and were in fact suffering under many of the same industrial and infrastructure limitations. They also did not want to go above 40,000 tons, and saw 45,000 tons as something that only the Pacific navies should/would concern themselves with. Of course, like the RM, the Marine Nationale was still prepared to explore a 45,000-ton design, which was the maximum they could feasibly build (again, like Italy).

That said, in mid-1939 the French learned of German plans for the H-39-class - though their intelligence services had concluded they were 40,000-ton ships - and consequently Darlan did set the navy to study battleships of 40,000 tons displacement or more, and with guns of 400 to 420mm. This spawned a new design series of battleships - those we generally call the 'Alsace'-class (no name was officially assigned, though 'Alsace' was the first of those raised as possibilities) ranging from 40,000 to 45,000 tons. Ultimately, they opted to authorize two 40,000-ton battleships with 3x3 380mm guns in April 1940. Neither ship was laid down, of course, due to the Fall of France in May-June 1940, but the first was intended to be laid down in 1941 when the carrier Joffre was launched (actually replacing the planned second carrier, Painlevé), and the second before the end of 1942 (it was dependent on the new building dock at Brest being completed on time).

This leaves us with a rather interesting question. Should Europe not have exploded into war in 1939, but rather several years down the line (say, 1942) - Italy would have been faced with France building an extra pair of modern 380mm battleships, giving France a 3:2 superiority in this type over Italy should no new Italian battleships be built. Likewise, the scale of German (the 52,600-ton H-39's) and Soviet (59,150-ton Sovetsky Soyuz-class) construction would have become apparent. If nothing else, I think this is likely to spark a more serious look at building the 45,000-ton battleships than they gave in reality, because the cat would well and truly be out of the bag on any kind of 40,000-ton limit at that point.
 
Other than politics, there was probably not that much sense in going for an altogether different design just to move from 15" to 16".

1" of gun difference didn't buy any new quality, but development, cost and material premium was very significant.
 
Other than politics, there was probably not that much sense in going for an altogether different design just to move from 15" to 16".

1" of gun difference didn't buy any new quality, but development, cost and material premium was very significant.
Buys a shell 700-1200lbs 300-750lbs heavier, which does impressive things to armor penetration.
 
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Unfortunately not much is known about whatever 406mm design the Italians were looking at, other than that they expected that it would be able to penetrate any thickness of armor the 381/50 could at a range roughly 2,000 meters further. But this could have very well been more of a rule of thumb estimate rather than based on any specific designs.



Bearing in mind that everything past this is effectively speculation;

Assuming the Italians used the same shell design on their 406mm gun as for the 381/50 and 320/44, then we could expect it to weigh in at 1,073.8 kg (a bit over 2,367 lbs) - which is an 21.36% increase in mass over the 381/50 (884.8 kg).

With that said, it's also possible they might have opted for a more conventional shell design at a 406mm caliber. A major driver behind the high-penetration nature of the 320mm and 381mm shell designs was the intention to 'punch up' against adversaries - Littorio, for example, was developed from a 406mm design and her armor was by and large developed to be proof against 406mm guns, as this is what they assumed many other navies would opt for on their battleships. Though they knew a 381mm shell would never be able to hit as hard as a 406mm, they did at least intend to obtain similar penetration, hence the 'heavy' design of the 'Palla' versus the more conventional design of the APC shells of the 305/46 or 381/40. The same shell design was used on the 320/44.

With that pressure not being present at the 406mm caliber (as no one in Europe was seriously looking at using a caliber greater than 406mm), it's entirely possible that they would have opted for a more conventional shell design.



Returning back to the land of known facts - Stephen McLaughlin's article on UP.41 featured in Warship 2023 does include some information on the 406mm gun the Italians 'equipped' the design with.

This 406mm/50 was to fire a 950 kg shell at a muzzle velocity of 900 m/s, using a 342 kg propellant charge (in six bags). Maximum range was to be 41,000 meters, with a rate of fire of 2 rpm.

I personally don't think this should be taken as indicative of the intended performance of the Italian 406/50, as the shell is much too light to correspond to any Italian APC shell designs - even the lighter SAPC used as a secondary shells on the battleship guns. Like many things on UP.41, I suspect this is the Italians developing a design that they believed would better suit Soviet preferences - or at least what they thought the Soviets would prefer (ex, they included a 180mm secondary battery on UP.41, which is something the Soviets never seriously explored on their own battleship designs).

I would expect a heavier shell with a lower MV - more likely in the 1,050 to 1,100 kg range and a MV closer to 820-830 m/s.
 
Buys a shell 700-1200lbs heavier, which does impressive things to armor penetration.
(1)even the lower number is too much, provided one even can maintain the ratio in the heavier shell. Shell weight 700-1200 lbs over Italian 15" is firmly within 17" gun area.

(2)ultimately, it's still within more or less the same gauge - same class of penetration, same class of maneuvering restrictions, same class of reach, similar* class of effects on target.
15" ship will be somewhat weaker, but it will still be perfectly able to fight the larger cousin (and take a spot within line against one, which is a bit different).

Very suboptimal. Go 17-18(2"+) or just don't bother, unless 15" is fundamentally wrong and you have to design a new gun/turret system in any case.
Which is in fact that 15" nations other than Germany(i.e. Italy and France) were inclined to do.

*provided the shell design principles are to be maintained.
 
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(1)even the lower number is too much, provided one even can maintain the ratio in the heavier shell. Shell weight 700-1200 lbs over Italian 15" is firmly within 17" gun area.

(2)ultimately, it's still within more or less the same gauge - same class of penetration, same class of maneuvering restrictions, same class of reach, similar* class of effects on target.
15" ship will be somewhat weaker, but it will still be perfectly able to fight the larger cousin (and take a spot within line against one, which is a bit different).

Very suboptimal. Go 17-18(2"+) or just don't bother, unless 15" is fundamentally wrong and you have to design a new gun/turret system in any case.
Which is in fact that 15" nations other than Germany(i.e. Italy and France) were inclined to do.

*provided the shell design principles are to be maintained.
Okay.

Now where the hell did I pull that idea that 15" shells were 1500lbs out of my head?!? :mad: :mad: :mad: That's annoying when you have garbage data and can't figure out where the hell it came from.

However, going to a 16" gun would buy them 750lbs shell weight if the Italians went with a US-type Superheavy projectile. Per NavWeaps, the Italian 381mm/50 used shells 1950lbs/885kg in weight.
 
However, going to a 16" gun would buy them 750lbs shell weight if the Italians went with a US-type Superheavy projectile. Per NavWeaps, the Italian 381mm/50 used shells 1950lbs/885kg in weight.
Italian 1930s shell design (in proportions at least) is actually sorta close to US(later UK) superheavy in weights.
Somewhat lighter proportionally(only just), highest "steel" fraction, and with a record small bursting cavity(even below US superheavy), but flying seriously fast.

Even Italian SAPBC are arguably closer to the more boomy APCs rather than to actual semis in filler fraction. Why such a design policy - maybe Italian members can explain.
 
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Also it need to be remembered something bout the Italian 15 inchers.

They had stupid high muzzle velocity. Starting at 850 meters a second and went up to almost 900 for their 1,951 lbs AP shells.

The Iowa Mark 7 firing the MK8 2,700 lbs Super heavy maxed out at bout 760 ms and with the HC MK18 1,900 lbs shells going up to at most 850.

Which is why despite being only like 72 percent of the weight the Littorios 15 inch had similar range and armor peneration figures when compare to the Iowas and Yamato guns.

Especially in the sub 25,000 yard range which was basically the max EFFECTIVE range for fire control with Flight Time was over 20 seconds. Any further and its fucking up to lady luck.

Which by this point in the the Battleship development, there was not a ship a float or in design with armor that could stop those 3 shells models at those ranges.
 
Well, all 35'000s(fake or true) were more equal than not in daylight combat, and even more so as "pieces on the chessboard"; adding a few thousand tons didn't change that much, and more noticeable quality changes were all too obvious to naval engineers from other nations(cheating, friend?).

Much larger Iowas - intentionally, but still, - failed to use their size to gain appreciably more direct combat power than others: escalator cause was sorta wasted from male context 'investment' perspective (but produced much finer ships overall).
Nor even the even huge, but conservative H and Sov.Soyuz did, being from this perspective utterly wasteful.

In a way, we can simply agree with Japanese conclusion from early 1930s - no amount of small scale engineering exellence/cheating here and there produced significant quality overmatch. It just wastly increased chances to Tomozuru something in the process.

If you want to cheat - go big, 18" balanced design, screwing up the whole board, or go home.
If no, just add pairs of additional Littorios.
 
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Italian 1930s shell design (in proportions at least) is actually sorta close to US(later UK) superheavy in weights.
Somewhat lighter proportionally(only just), highest "steel" fraction, and with a record small bursting cavity(even below US superheavy), but flying seriously fast.

Even Italian SAPBC are arguably closer to the more boomy APCs rather than to actual semis in filler fraction. Why such a design policy - maybe Italian members can explain.

It was meant to act as an option more suitable for lightly armored targets - or lightly armored areas of enemy ships - than the main shells.

The 'heavy' Palla/Proiettile Perforante was, as discussed earlier, designed to maximize penetration of vertical armor. It was a very robust shell with a strong AP cap, but, as a result had a small bursting charge that combined with the high penetrative performance made it substantially less effective against lighter ships. In fact, general gunnery regulations, at least as of September 1942, dictated that this type of ammunition should only be fired against enemy battleships, at least with one exception (it seems the American Baltimore-class cruisers were considered strongly armored enough that 320mm guns should shoot Palla rather than Granata Perforante at them).

For all lighter targets (cruiers, destroyers, carriers), the Granata Perforante shells - which at this caliber were an SAPC type shell* - should be used. This shell had substantially more filler (almost three times as much) and was much thinner in terms of body thickness and cap thickness. This made it good for producing more, smaller high velocity splinters, as well as reducing the penetrative potential overall. Ex, the 381/50 GP was rated for 213mm of penetration at 20,000 meters, and the 320/44, 152mm.

It's also worth noting that these shells were to be used against enemy battleships when it was thought the 381/50 PP would not be effective in penetrating enemy armor. Ex, the weaker 320/44 was supposed to fire GP at American battleships (all classes) at any range beyond 18,000 meters, but PP at ranges below 18,000 meters. The same rule held against modern British battleships of the Nelson and King George V-class, but any older battleships (or battlecruisers) should be engaged with PP at all ranges.


*A note on Granata Perforante. This referred to any Armor-Piercing shell with substantial filler (2-5%), but exactly what type of shell this could be was fairly variable. For example, the 203mm GP shells used by the 203/50 and 53 were conventional APC shells, the same as you would find on most 8" cruiser guns of the era (if those guns did have an APC shell in the first place - quite a few did not). The battleship-caliber (320mm & 381mm), as discussed earlier, were more of less SAPC shells. At the destroyer caliber - 120mm and 135mm - these actually lacked an AP cap. When the Americans examined an Italian 120mm GP shell after the war, they found it to be very comparable to their own 5"/38's Mk.46 Special Common.
 

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