Dyle et Bacalan & SAB Designations

[Apophenia]

Société Dyle et Bacalan - 1924-1929

In 1924, shipbuilders Société de Travaux Dyle et Bacalan of Bordeaux established an aeronautical division to design and build aircraft of all-metal construction. This shipbuilding firm went bankrupt in 1928 and was bought by the Ateliers et Chantiers Maritimes du Sud-Ouest to form the Ateliers et Chantiers Maritimes du Sud-Ouest et de Bacalan Réunis. Aircraft design and construction was then taken over by the Société Aérien Bordelaise (SAB).

Note that 'DB' designations were initially carried over into 1930 by the newly-formed SAB.

Dyle et Bacalan 'DB' Aircraft Designations

DB 1 - (Project) 1924 twin-engined; lifting-body bomber
- DB 1 : Braced high wings; fixed undercarriage
- DB 1 : 2 x (??) hp (??) engines;* span; 18.00 m
-- * Unclear if annular-radial V12s or radial engines?

DB 2 - (Project) 192? twin-engined; lifting-body a/c
- DB 2 : Led to DB 20; no details (??); see reply #3

DB 10 - 1926 twin-engined, heavy night bomber prototype
- DB 10 : High-wing monoplane; lifting body centre section
- DB 10 : 2 x 480 hp Gnome-Rhône 9A Jupiter; span 25.00 m
- DB 10H: (Project) Hydro; twin float-seaplane derivative
- DB 10 Bn4: Armée de l'Air desig.; Bomber, nuit, 4-place
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/dyle-bacalan-société-aérienne-bordelaise-sab-projects.4843/#post-41171
- DB 11 : (Project) Inline-engined DB 10 development
- DB 11 : Revised wing planform with no sweep-back
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/dyle-bacalan-société-aérienne-bordelaise-sab-projects.4843/#post-119934

DB 20 - 1929 twin-engined; 4-seat; armoured attack a/c; x 1
- DB 20 : All-metal monoplane; lifting body centre-section
- DB 20 : 2 x 420 hp Gnome-Rhône Jupiter 9Ad; span 21.00 m
- DB 20 : Once fitted, armour plating diminished performance

DB 30 - 1928 twin-engined; 4-seat; monoplane recce a/c; x 1
- DB 30 : All-metal constr.; lifting body centre-section
- DB 30 : 2 x 450 hp Lorraine 12Eb Courlis W-12s; span 28.00 m

DB 40 - (Project) 1928 twin-engined torpedo-bomber floatplane
- DB 40 : Airframe derived from the DB 30 reconnaissance aircraft
- DB 40 : 2 x 420 hp Gnome-Rhône Jupiter 9A; span 27.60 m
- DB 40 : Cantilevered high-wings with 'lifting-body'; twin floats

DB 50 - (Project) 193? single-engined observation sesquiplane
- DB 50 : To an A3 requirement to replace Breguet Bre XIX/19
- DB 50 : 1 x 480 hp Renault 12 Kd V-12 engine; span (??) m

DB 60 - (??) no details; poss. a development of DB 30
- DB 60: see reply #3

DB 70 - 1929 trimotor; braced-monoplane; 3+28 airliner; x 1
- DB 70 : All-metal constr.; lifting body centre-body/cabin
- DB 70 : 3 x 600 hp HS 12Lbr V-12 engines; span 37.00 m
- DB 70 : 3 x crew; 28 x diurnal pax, 24 x 'sleeper' pax
- DB 71 (I) : (Project) Higher-powered DB 70 airliner deriv.
- DB 71 : 3 x 700 hp Lorraine 18Gad Orion; span 37.00 m
- DB.71: Abandoned with end of work on the Orion W-18
- DB 71 (II): 4-engined bomber derivative of BD 70/DB 71 (I)
- DB.71: 4 x 600 hp Lorraine 12Fb (or 12E) Courlis W-12s
- DB.71: aka SAB AB.20 (qv); see replies #18 and #19
-- * NB: Contemporary confusion with AB 15 bomber design
- DB 72 - DB 74: (??) hypothetical designations
- DB 75 : (Project) For BN.4 programme; redesig. DB 90

DB 80 - 1930 all-metal; high-wing monoplane; mailplane x 2
- DB 80 : Corrogated constr.; cantilever wing; cabin a/c; x 1
- DB 80 : 1 x 100 hp Hispano-Suiza 6P 6-cyl.; span 12.00 m
- DB 81 : Mailplane; 1 x 120 hp Lorraine 5Pc ('120CV') radial

DB 90 - (Project) 1930 twin-boomed; 4-seat; night bomber
- DB 90 : Redesignated DB 75 variant of DB 70 airliner
- DB 90 : 3 x (??) hp (??) engines; span 37.00 m (??)*
-- * Assuming span is unchanged from DB 70 airliner

Société Aérienne Bordelaise (SAB) - 1929-1934

As noted above, the aviation assets of the bankrupt Société Dyle et Bacalan were refounded as the Société Aérienne Bordelaise on 25 July 1929. The Société Aérienne Bordelaise was established with funding assistance from the Bordeaux region and from Nieuport-Delage.

Former Dyle et Bacalan engineer Létang became directeur général of SAB and continued development of several designs under their prior 'DB' designation sequence. Some of these would be redesignated under a new SAB 'AB' series.

Société Aérienne Bordelaise 'AB' Aircraft Designations

AB 15 - (Project) 1930 twin-boomed 5-seat heavy bomber
- AB 15 : Development of the Dyle et Bacalan DB 70 airliner
- AB 15 : 4 x 610 hp Lorraine 12 Fb Courlis; span (??) m
- AB 15 : Redesigned as AB 20 (qv) as the design evolved

AB 20 - 1932 4-engined; twin-boomed; heavy bomber; x 1
- AB 20 : Initially, a redesignation & continuation of AB 15
- AB 20 : (As built) With nose gun & bombardier positions
- AB 20 : 4 x 600 hp Lorraine 12Fb Courlis; span 37.00 m
- AB 21 : 1933 refined AB 20 devel. with new tapered wings
- AB 21 : 4 x 500 hp Lorraine 12Ha Pétrel;* span 36.70 m
-- * Planned re-engining from Pétrels to 860 hp HS 12Ys
- AB.21H: (Project) 1934 torpedo/recce bomber floatplane
- AB 22: Prototype AB 20 revised from bomber to attack role
- AB 22: 1934; fitted w/ sideways-fire 75 mm gun; 5 x crew
-- AB 22 abandoned; gun firing resulted in wing skin damage

AB 30 - (Project) 4-engined bomber; no details (??)

AB 40 - AB 60 (??) hypothetical designations; see reply #3

AB 70 - Marketing designation for Lorraine Hanriot LH 70

AB 80 - (Project) 1934 high-winged; twin-engined military a/c
- AB 80 : 4-seat multiplace de combat; twin fins & rudders
- AB 80 : 2 x 860 hp HS 12Ybrs V12 engines; span 18.52 m
- AB 80 : Covered cockpit; fore & aft machine gun positions
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/société-aérienne-bordelaise-sab-80-bn-5-les-ailes-no-1-741-15-septembre-1959-jpg.134512/

AB 90 - (??) hypothetical designation; see reply #3

Societé d'Etudes de Materiel d'Aviation 'SEMA' Designations

The SEMA 10 biplane trainer was constructed (under contract?) by the Société Aérienne Bordelaise. This unsuccessful trainer prototype was later converted into the more powerful SEMA 12. This airframe is often assigned a 'SAB SEMA' designation prefix.

SAB SEMA 10 - 1933 military intermediate trainer; x 1
- SEMA 10: Tandem 2-seat; single-bay biplane trainer
- SEMA 10: 1 x 240 hp Lorraine 7Mc Mizar; span 8.75 m
-- SEMA 10 prototype rebuilt as more powerful SEMA 12

SAB SEMA 12 - 1934 military advanced trainer biplane
- SEMA 12: Rebuilt/re-engined SAB SEMA 10 prototype
- SEMA 12: 1 x 296 hp Lorraine 9Na Algol; span 10.88 m
- SEMA 12: Townend ring; spatted u/c; enlarged tailplane

SAB also constructed the prototype LH 70 colonial transport. As that designation shows, this high-wing monoplane was a Lorraine Hanriot design. SAB marketed this aircraft under its original Lorraine Hanriot designation. That said, the aircraft is often referred to as the SAB (or Bordelaise) LH 70. So, for completeness ...

SAB (Lorraine Hanriot) LH 70 - 1931 colonial aircraft; x 1
- LH 70 : High cantilever-winged monoplane transport
- LH 70 : 3 x 300 hp Lorraine 9N Algol; span 24.00 m
-- LH 70 suffered poor lateral stability & engine vibrations

 

[Stargazer]

Thank you so much, Apophenia! Nothing much to add here:

• I have the year 1925 for the DB-10, and 1929 for the DB-11 and AB-15. I guess it's always a case of whether one considers the reveal date or the first flight date.
• The DB-20 was the competitor of the LeO-30 and the Couzinet 90.

---

Chronology of Dyle & Bacalan :

• 1854 : Mr. Maldant, a manufacturer of boilers and fire pumps, establishes les Ateliers de Bacalan (Bacalan works) for construction of both rail and maritime material. They are taken over by Mr. Arman, who designates them Ateliers Bordelais, then Compagnie des Chantiers et Ateliers de l’Océan (notably for boilers). The company employs up to 3000 workers at its peak, and builds one of the very first ironclad battleships.
  
  
• 1871 : bankruptcy and liquidation.
  
  
• 1872 : Mr. Delahante takes over the company, and renames it Ateliers de Bacalan, its initial name.
  
  
• 1877 : construction of wagons for the shipping of milk containers. One such wagon is preserved to this day, and is the oldest wagon to have received the official "Historic Monument" label.
  
  
• Circa 1880-1890 : construction of coaches for the Chemins de Fer Économiques de la Gironde. Several examples have been preserved.
  
  
• 1879 : fusion with the Ateliers de la Dyle at Louvain (Belgium).
  
  
• 1892 : rail production becomes more important than naval construction.
  
  
• 1896 : construction of coaches for the Cadillac tramway (Cadillac being a city of the Bordeaux area). One example has been preserved in the Paris area.
  
  
• 1911 : While aviation airframes are made of wood, D & B offers a brand new type of steel construction.
  
  
• 1912-1915 : construction of electric railcars for the Compagnie du P.-O. and the Compagnie du Midi. One example is currently rotting away at the Limoges depot, despite being a Historic Monument.
  
  
• 1914 : D & B starts a new production plant at St-Denis to make up for that of Dyle, which was lost as a result of German occupation of Belgium.
  
  
• World War I: D & B works as a subcontractor for land aircraft and seaplane manufacturers.
  
  
• 1924 : the Dyle factory in Belgium is rebuilt. The entire D & B workforce, Belgium included, comprises some 5000 workers. Combined site surface is 740,000 sq. m.
  
  
• 1925 : creation of an aeronautical design office. A whole range of experimental aircraft with very thick mid-wing is developed. The configuration enables access to the rear of engines during flight and transport of either passengers or large-size cargo.
  
  
• 1927: D & B builds railway lines abroad, as well as the Aiguille du Midi cable car.
  
  
• After 1927 : the construction of rolling equipment is assigned to the Belgian site of the Dyle.
  D & B builds ore wagon, electric railcars, passenger coaches, locomotive tenders, and counts the Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits among its customers. D & B also possesses a production site on the Quai de Queyries at La Bastide.
  D & B also makes a name for itself by building industrial par la construction industrial refrigeration installations, including units for ships.
  
  
• 1929: construction of the DB-70; one of the earliest heavy transports, an all-metal trimotor for 28 passengers, with 1800 hp engine power. The Army is interested and requisitions the aircraft during the September 1931 maneuvers. The operations are deemed successful, but unfortunately, the aircraft fails to attract civilian contracts (eventually, it winds up in schools, where its airframe serves to train future mechanics, but its track is lost during the 1950s).
  Dyle & Bacalan goes through financial difficulties; in July 1929, the aeronautical department is sold to the Société Aérienne Bordelaise (SAB), a company with French and Belgian capital, while railway production remains identified as D & B. The SAB continues subcontracting work for Nieuport and others, while developing its own products.
  
  
• 1929-1931 : construction of 195 C11-type passenger coaches for Compagnie du PLM, all convertible to sanitary wagons for the Army .At least seven have been preserved.
  
  
• 1930 : Lorraine Diétrich integrates its Argenteuil factory and several aviation manufacturers and suppliers recently purchased (including the SAB, but also Hanriot, Amiot, Nieuport-Astra and others) into the newly-formed Société Générale Aéronautique (SGA). The deal seems good on paper, with a total capital of 400 MFF and a company now of international proportions. However, it soon turns sour for several reasons: the stock exchange crisis prevents the hoped-for raising of funds; the SGA's main bank, the BNC, soon finds itself on the verge of bankruptcy; and suspected insider speculation makes it worse; with over 40 aircraft types in the catalog, the company has difficulty to coordinate the various entities; military orders suffer an economic decline; and to make things worse, the competition add fuel to the fire...
  
  
• Jan. 1932: SAB produces the AB-20, a three-engined (later four-) bomber of 2400 hp engine power, capable of carrying 2 tons of bombs or an entire commando.
  
  
• 1933: Another prototype, the AB-21, is produced. It produces only 2000 hp with four engines and is lighter. However, it is plagued by vibration issues.
  
  
• 1935: the AB-21 makes an impressive public demonstration, landing an entire commando of machine gunners who empty their magazines in front of the crowd, then board again immediately and leave. Unfortunately, the prototype cannot be taken safely into a hangar because of its size, and is destroyed by a tornado soon after that.
  The SAB becomes the Société Aéronautique du Sud-Ouest (SASO).
  
  
• 1936 : construction of self-propelled Z-4100 trains, which were used to connect with the Pointe-de-Grave up to the 1980s. At least one is preserved at Martel, in the Lot area.
  
  
• 1937 : the SASO is incorporated into the SNCASO.

---

Selected sources:

• Forum Aviation Ancienne
• Mémoire Ferroviaire Bordeaux
• Docavia: l'Histoire des essais en vol 1914-1940, par Louis Bonte
• Aviafrance: Un siecle d'aviation francaise
• Блог Lord_k. Монстр из Бордо
• Le Fana de l'Aviation April-May 1970

 

[hesham]

Amazing and brilliant work as usual my dear APOPHENIA,

and I can add to Dyle et Bacalan,

DB-1 let to develop DB-10
DB-2 let to develop DB-20
DB-10H a float plane version,project
DB-10 civil and military project versions for transport
DB-60 was unknown ?,but may it was an armored fighter-bomber project,could be
based on DB-30

For SAB

AB.30 was a bomber project
AB.40 ? was unknown,but may it was a bomber project
AB.50 ? was unknown,but may it was a civil transport project,based on AB.40
AB.60 ? was unknown
AB.70 was the same as Lorraine-Hanriot LH-70
AB.90 ? was unknown

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks hesham, I knew you'd have more to add

Stargazer: Wow ... amazing timeline!

 

[hesham]

DB-60 was unknown ?,but may it was an armored fighter-bomber project,could be
based on DB-30

By the way,the armored attack aircraft project was mentioned in old
Encyclopedia book,as in my file,but I forget to record its title ?,and
please note; it was an armored attack and heavy fighter in the same
time.

 

[hesham]

In TU magazine,and as Mr. Charles Claveau explained,the AB.70 was later
became LH-70.

By the way,yesterday he joined this forum as I see in new member show,the
exactly name,but I don't know if he is the same guy or not ?.

 

[Apophenia]

In TU magazine,and as Mr. Charles Claveau explained,the AB.70 was later became LH-70.

By the way,yesterday he joined this forum as I see in new member show,the exactly name,but I don't know if he is the same guy or not ?.

I'm having trouble parsing both your post and the Google Translate rendering of your clipping.

 

[hesham]

I'm having trouble parsing both your post and the Google Translate rendering of your clipping.

It's,
LH70 (AB70):

Responding to the colonial trimotor program Issued in 1930, the AB70 then LH70 will be the subject of a prototype market for the sum of 3,866,000 francs.

 

[Apophenia]

Yes, ... my difficulty was not in reading the words of the translation but in parsing their meaning.

 

[hesham]

For more analysis,

LH-70

In 1930 the Lorraine-Hanriot firm begins the study of a transport aircraft
commercial three-engine aircraft, named LH-70.
A model is made in Bourges including the wings and the fuselage. Following
the launch of the Colonial Tri-Motor Program in 1930, it was decided to present
the LH-70 there. As part of the SGA, its production was entrusted to the Société Aérien Bordelaise in its Bacalan factory.

 

[hesham]

SAB AB.30 was a bomber project

The only Info about it,which I can declare,that AB.30 had been powered by four engines.

 

[hesham]

From Aviation magazine 1983,the SAB AB.81 ?,

Well before the release of the A.22 program of 1936 relating to
three-seater fighters, a special version "C.3" of the AB-80 had
been studied without it being possible for the editor to know
if it had received a particular reference (AB-81?).

 

[hesham]

From Aviation magazine 1983.

 

[Stargazer]

From Aviation magazine 1983.

This table's title is a misnomer, as it actually goes way beyond the Dyle et Bacalan era.
The name disappeared soon after the Société Aérienne Bordelaise took over, and the new aircraft were just refered to as S.A.B. or Bordelaise. Also the SEMA-10 and -12, although produced by the S.A.B., had absolutely nothing to do with Dyle and Bacalan!!!

 

[PhR]

My friend Jean Lacroze has published many years ago a dedicated issue of the "Trait d'Union" magazine, about the history of aviation at Bacalan. It includes activities from De Marçay, Dyle & Bacalan, SGA, SAB, SEMA, SASO and SNCASO.

 

[Stargazer]

My friend Jean Lacroze has published many years ago a dedicated issue of the "Trait d'Union" magazine, about the history of aviation at Bacalan. It includes activities from De Marçay, Dyle & Bacalan, SGA, SAB, SEMA, SASO and SNCASO.

Wish I had that one! I have about 200 issues of Le Trait d'Union, but not this one!

 

[hesham]

Wish I had that one! I have about 200 issues of Le Trait d'Union, but not this one!

There is no new thing in it.

 

[Bazinga]

DB 71 : DB 70 airliner derivative;* poss. re-engined (??)
- DB 71 : 3 x 700 hp Lorraine 18Gad Orion; span (??) m

This is a 4 engined 600hp Lorraine Courlis (12F most likely or 12E) liner. See Les Ailes article and picture
Could it be that the DB-71 you mention be a (planned) re-engined DB.70? The DB.70 was 3 engined and it would make sense to crank up the power need from 3x600hp Hispano 12Lbr to 3x700hp Lorraine Orion 18Gad. I do not see the 18Gad used much on any French airframe at the time, so that might explain why the ultimate 71 had a 4-engine 12-cylinder outline. A more rigorous wing change but more reliable/available engine.

 

[hesham]

This is a 4 engined 600hp Lorraine Courlis (12F most likely or 12E) liner. See Les Ailes article and picture
Could it be that the DB-71 you mention be a (planned) re-engined DB.70? The DB.70 was 3 engined and it would make sense to crank up the power need from 3x600hp Hispano 12Lbr to 3x700hp Lorraine Orion 18Gad. I do not see the 18Gad used much on any French airframe at the time, so that might explain why the ultimate 71 had a 4-engine 12-cylinder outline. A more rigorous wing change but more reliable/available engine.

That's a project only.

 

[Bazinga]

AB 20 - 1932 4-engined; twin-boomed; heavy bomber; x 1
- AB 20 : Initially, a redesignation & continuation of AB 15
- AB 20 : (As planned) DB 70-related trimotor bomber
- AB 20 : (As built) Bombardier nose position; as required
- AB 20 : 4 x 493 hp Lorraine 12Fb Courlis; span 37.00 m
- AB 21 : Structually refined AB 20 with cantilevered wings
- AB 21 : 4 x 493 hp Lorraine 12Ha Pétrel; span 36.70 m
- AB.21H: (Project) 1934 torpedo/recce bomber floatplane
- AB 22: Prototype AB 20 revised from bomber to attack role
- AB 22: 1934; fitted w/ sideways-fire 75 mm gun; 5 x crew
-- AB 22 abandoned; gun firing resulted in wing skin damage

The AB-20 had a 4x600/610 hp Lorraine Courlis 12Fb (not 493) which makes sense as it was already planned on the AB.15.
The AB-21 had a 4x500hp Lorraine Petrel 12Ha and was planned for an upgrade to supercharged 860hp Hispano 12Ybrs
The Flight International article explains the 3 to 4 engine layout. It was driven by the need of a nose gunner.

 

[Bazinga]

Interestingly Le Fana 1970 article by Michel Borget classifies the AB-20 as a BN.4 and the AB.21 as a BN.5. Note also the wing increase on the 21

 

[Apophenia]

The AB-20 had a 4x600/610 hp Lorraine Courlis 12Fb (not 493) ...

Thanks for the corrections and details, @Bazinga!

IIRC, that "493 hp" came from a contemporary Flight article. Some goofy numbers result from conversions between cv and hp. But, even allowing for that, "493 hp" doesn't seem to be accurate (since it only equates to 500 cv).

 

[Bazinga]

That's a project only.

Based on the evidence, we can conclude that before the 71 became final, there was a version on the drawing board with 3x700hp Lorraine Orion 18Gad. It was abandoned by the need to have a nose gunner in the 71, hence the 4x600hp Lorraine Courlis 12Fb.

 

[Bazinga]

Some more on the Sema I captured in 2019

 

[hesham]

From TU magazine.

 

[Apophenia]

Some more on the Sema I captured in 2019

Thanks @Bazinga. I hadn't realised that the SEMA 12 had longer-span wings than it did as the SEMA 10. I've listed that increased span as 10.88 m (from your first clipping) but I note that your second clipping has the SEMA 12 span as 10.75 m. I have no idea which of these is more probable ...

 

[Bazinga]

I tend to believe the company ads just a little more than the local reporter of an av mag. But agreed, it could very well be that the marketing folks of D&B were snoozing. I have seen more ads which later were superseded by more accurate intel....It is the only clipping I have, so scarce. Perhaps anybody with access to Janes of 1934 could shed some light.

 

[hesham]

I tend to believe the company ads just a little more than the local reporter of an av mag. But agreed, it could very well be that the marketing folks of D&B were snoozing. I have seen more ads which later were superseded by more accurate intel....It is the only clipping I have, so scarce. Perhaps anybody with access to Janes of 1934 could shed some light.

No need for JAWA 1934,here all Info.

 

[Apophenia]

Okay, so we now have two magazine article clippings claiming a span of 10.75 m for the SEMA 12 and a SAB advertisement saying that the span was 10.88 m

I tend to believe the company ads just a little more than the local reporter of an av mag...

Agreed. So, I am leaving the SEMA 12 span as 10.88 m for now. But be warned ...

 

[Bazinga]

The power of the crowd. We all have a piece of the puzzle.

 

[hesham]

From my book,both of them had 10.75m span,and SEMA 10
with 6.75m length and SEMA 12 with 6.90m length.

 

[woodville]

JAWA 1934 gives the following dimensions for the SEMA 10 - Span 10.75m ; Length 6.9m ; Height 2.82m ; Wing Area 30 sq m. There is no mention of the SEMA 12 and no other editions cover these aircraft.