Project Orion / Project Daedalus

Orionblamblam said:
??? Even the Tsar bomb is *many* orders of magnitude too weak to damage the planet in any material fashion.
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You are right, we don’t have (yet?) Death Star; but here the problem was the level of atmosphérique radioactivity at the beginning of 60s; hence the treaty of interdiction of nuclear explosions in the atmosphere. Ok after 10-20 years that level decreased to small (normal ?) levels.
 
And , for an Orion, functionning in the upper level of the atmosphere (above 60-80 km if launched by a S1C) what about electromagnetic pulse effects?
 
Pure fusion devices may need to come along.

Medusa/sail designs might allow a two-fer...expel tiny targets a laser detonates...detach the spacecraft "clip" with probe---sail unfolds more and the laser accelerates if fast after the bus is staged.

Killjoy
https://phys.org/news/2024-04-nukes-space-bad-idea-1960s.html
 
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publiusr said:
Pure fusion devices may need to come along.
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You could certainly generate pretty ludicrous thrust that way, one interpretation of the Epstein Drive from the Expanse is as a pure-fusion magnetic sail Orion/Daedalus drive.
 
Folks, after watching Hazegrayart video too many times (Orion interstellar ark) I think the solution to lift Orion away from Earth is... a big cluster of Aerojet 260 inch SRBs. A four stages, all solid monster rocket. In the early days of Apollo was a concept for an all-solid Nova; imagine that with only 260 inch SRBs.
 
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Vladimir_Alyosha said:
with our current knowledge ofo engineering, physics, and technology
is it possible to build ?
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The fuel of hydrogen isotopes was assumed to be mined from Jupiter's (or Saturn's) atmosphere as only the quantities necessary would be accessible there. A substantial industrial infrastructure stretching across the Solar System would therefore have to be in place - and Daedalus would be launched from Jupiter orbit, not Earth orbit.

The clip looks great though.
 
Archibald said:
No ground based fusion = no fusion spaceship. The irony being that good old Orion is perfectly workable. Atomic bombs pushing through a spring-mounted-steel-plate : primitive maybe, yet the one and only realistic starship drive presently on hand.
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I think the various fusion labs have demonstrated the basics, injecting a fusion fuel pellet to get lit by some lasers of sufficient size.

But that's still something at TRL 4-5 at best.
 
Vladimir_Alyosha said:
with our current knowledge ofo engineering, physics, and technology
is it possible to build ?
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In theory - yes, we have all required technology. On practice - it would require the development of tremendous amount of new solutions. And, frankly, Daedalus design is outdated. There are much more modern and compact projects - like "Firefly" or "Ghost ship" from "Icarus" interstellar probe project competition.
 
The craft only need be a dish with a cylinder to hold pellets.

A laser from the inner solar system hits the dish--the beam focused to a point where the fusion pellet is--and the dish acts as a pusher plate I suppose.
 
Forest Green said:
Not quite true since you don't need a positive net energy return, only propulsive force, for space propulsion use.
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And you can use relatively crude, pulsed fusion detonations instead of the more exotic Fusion thermal rockets.

You only need to recover enough energy to power the laser and pellet launcher in that case.
 
martinbayer said:
Please define *near future* quantitatively in terms of (at least approximate more or less educated guesses) calendar years.
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Fission nuke-thermals are at the "bench tested in actual conditions" TRL, so TRL-6. IIRC, there had been a plan to launch a NERVA in the late 1960s or early 1970s for orbital flight tests to bring it to TRL7 or 8.

So if the powers that be sign off on building some more, we could have them in less than a decade. Designs are complete, just need to build the stupid things.
 
PRL 9 goes to Leonid Kuchma

Married to the daughter of the Chief Engineering Officer at Yuzhmash—later Soviet Minister of Medium Machine Building.

I think he may have worked for Barmin or Utkin.

Poor Culberson…he was too nice:
https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/9uw3u5/rep_john_culberson_the_biggest_proponent_of_the
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/9uw3u5/rep_john_culberson_the_biggest_proponent_of_the/


Kuchma—in his place—may have simply invited his opposition over for a nice bowl of soup.

PRL 10 goes to China’s Range Safety Officer:
https://tenor.com/view/darkseid-superman-smile-evil-dc-gif-20896007
 
Scott Kenny said:
I don't think the Politicians would be willing to be named in that...
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I think that every once in a while there are moments in history when public opinion gels more or less spontaneously behind the concept of a particular event or idea - e.g. Kennedy's Moonshot. I recognize however that in the current increasingly fractured/oversaturated political media landscape these outcomes are exceedingly rare, since majority consensus is becoming ever more elusive.
 
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martinbayer said:
I think that every once in a while there are moments in history when public opinion gels more or less spontaneously behind the concept of a particular event or idea - e.g. Kennedy's Moonshot. I recognize however that in the current increasingly fractured/oversaturated political media landscape these outcomes are exceedingly rare, since majority consensus is becoming ever more elusive.
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It is always very sad to see that for much breaktrough projects a war is needed..
The other way is a sort of modern billonairne Howard Hughes. (We all now who that is)
 
martinbayer said:
I think that every once in a while there are moments in history when public opinion gels more or less spontaneously behind the concept of a particular event or idea - e.g. Kennedy's Moonshot. I recognize however that in the current increasingly fractured/oversaturated political media landscape these outcomes are exceedingly rare, since majority consensus is becoming ever more elusive.
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It typically takes a perceived existential threat to pull that off.
 
Could the pusher plate withstand a junior league Shoemaker/Levy type line of debris? We see lines of craters on the Moon...rubble pile coaxed into a "ring" around Mars of Venus.

Starship deploys the craft using conventional methods so the bits aren't too much faster--otherwise they'd hole the plate.
 
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publiusr said:
Could the pusher plate withstand a junior league Shoemaker/Levy type line of debris?
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Scott Kenny said:
I don't believe so. An Orion pusher plate is eating a plasma wall, not a solid impact.
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Ya the pusher plate is NOT designed or built to take an 'impact' of anything but plasma. One idea for launching an Orion without nukes in the atmosphere was to use a set of rapid fire 5 inch naval guns to launch "Super-High-Explosive*" projectiles that would explode short of the plate and the hot gases would give the Orion thrust. One of the biggest issues for such a plan is what happens if the round doesn't explode but actually hits the pusher plate and the main answer was "nothing good" even if you used very light materials for the "shell" the explosive itself would likely go off ON the plate damaging it to some extent.

Randy
* "SHE" as they are collectively known are very powerful chemical explosives that have "not-nominal" issues that preclude them from being used for most purposes. Say like spontaneously exploding after six months in storage :)
IIRC Scott had a detailed post on them on his blog?
 
The rubble pile bits are a far cry from HE shells. Keeping things fluffy and not too fast may make all the difference.
 

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