The Hound Dog for NATO

[uk 75]

This one is not really feasible but it does produce some interesting models or artwork.
The USAF had its Hound Dogs in service from the Cuban Missile Crisis well into the 70s.
If politics and other considerations had not got in the way, permutations of NATO Hound might have served on the following aircraft, giving SACEUR a credible nuclear force in Europe:
RAF Vulcans and TSR2s
French AF Mirage IVs
Canadian FB105 Arrows

Crazy I know...

 

[Archibald]

Not sure the tiny Mirage IVA could drag something as big as a Hound Dog. The Mirage IVB might be a different matter.

 

[alertken]

When JFK encountered PM Macmillan's domestic political problems from cancellation of Skybolt he offered Hound Dog for Vulcan. SecDef McNamara had chopped Skybolt because it added nothing to his quiver (B-58B ditto) - HD was good enough, proven, affordable (he bought >700 of them!) So why did Mac not accept with alacrity? We now know he was disposed to letting the Deterrent Task lapse after Vulcans ran out of hours, early-1970s, so declined to move Skybolt onto VC10s.

I suggest the answer was his surprise at his Party's hostile reaction to loss of the Bomb. Macho, Power, influence, top table. So: grab Polaris quick on favourable terms, exploiting JFK's embarrassment.

 

[Hood]

I would suggest that because Hound Dog would at best of been a sticking plaster to keep the V-Force viable while Polaris offered a better longer-term solution.

 

[sferrin]

This one is not really feasible but it does produce some interesting models or artwork.
The USAF had its Hound Dogs in service from the Cuban Missile Crisis well into the 70s.
If politics and other considerations had not got in the way, permutations of NATO Hound might have served on the following aircraft, giving SACEUR a credible nuclear force in Europe:
RAF Vulcans and TSR2s
French AF Mirage IVs
Canadian FB105 Arrows

Crazy I know...

No way would an Arrow be able to carry a Hound Dog.

 

[CNH]

The V bombers were unable to carry Hound Dog since the ground clearance on the bombers was totally inadequate.
The B52 was a high wing aircraft.

 

[sferrin]

 

[Archibald]

This one is not really feasible but it does produce some interesting models or artwork.
The USAF had its Hound Dogs in service from the Cuban Missile Crisis well into the 70s.
If politics and other considerations had not got in the way, permutations of NATO Hound might have served on the following aircraft, giving SACEUR a credible nuclear force in Europe:
RAF Vulcans and TSR2s
French AF Mirage IVs
Canadian FB105 Arrows

Crazy I know...

No way would an Arrow be able to carry a Hound Dog.

By contrast a Skybolt might fit semi-conformally under the belly... NOT in the bay of course.

 

[Rickshaw]

The V bombers were unable to carry Hound Dog since the ground clearance on the bombers was totally inadequate.
The B52 was a high wing aircraft.

That might be true of the Handley Page Victor but it was not true of the Vulcan. The Vulcan had a massive amount of ground clearance compared to the B-52.

 

[pathology_doc]

The V bombers were unable to carry Hound Dog since the ground clearance on the bombers was totally inadequate.
The B52 was a high wing aircraft.

That might be true of the Handley Page Victor but it was not true of the Vulcan. The Vulcan had a massive amount of ground clearance compared to the B-52.

Between the fuselage and the ground yes, but between the bottom of the wing and the ground? That's the critical part.

 

[Rickshaw]

The V bombers were unable to carry Hound Dog since the ground clearance on the bombers was totally inadequate.
The B52 was a high wing aircraft.

That might be true of the Handley Page Victor but it was not true of the Vulcan. The Vulcan had a massive amount of ground clearance compared to the B-52.

Between the fuselage and the ground yes, but between the bottom of the wing and the ground? That's the critical part.

Is approximately 12 feet under the wing sufficient? It was approximately 8 feet under the fuselage

 

[Rickshaw]

You have to take into consideration that AGM-28 was specific in that the pylon was part of the weapon system, a complex structure because it transferred the thrust loads to the B-52 wing and full of equipment and plumbing because the missile's tanks were connected with the aircraft's tanks. The pylon was not part of the B-52 structure. The missiles were removed from aircraft with the pylon attached and shipped the same for IRAN to Tinker AFB. Also the front part of the pylon had to be clear from any aircraft structure above it and to have a good field of vision upwards because it contained a Kollsman Instruments star-tracker (on top) to update the missile's NAA Autonetics N5G INS prior to launch.

Both are relatively minor problems which I don't doubt that the British aircraft industry could have surmounted. Yes, the pylons would have been different. Yes, they would have attached in a different location, neither however would have produced insurmountable problems. It the will is there, there is always a way.

 

[Deleted member 2278]

Given Hound Dog's stand-off nature, a carrier need not have been a bomber per se. A MPA could have been used, for example. Some inspiration to be found here:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/lockheed-cl-795-p-3-strategic-missile-platform.18049/

 

[Archibald]

Don't know why I didn't posted that before... Hound Dog was one option considered for NATO MLF between 1959 and 1963 - along with Minuteman, Skybolt and Polaris variants.

 

[Michel Van]

and what about launching the Hound Dog with rocket booster ala ZELL ?

 

[_Del_]

and what about launching the Hound Dog with rocket booster ala ZELL ?

Or just the Navajo.

 

[Scott Kenny]

This one is not really feasible but it does produce some interesting models or artwork.
The USAF had its Hound Dogs in service from the Cuban Missile Crisis well into the 70s.
If politics and other considerations had not got in the way, permutations of NATO Hound might have served on the following aircraft, giving SACEUR a credible nuclear force in Europe:
RAF Vulcans and TSR2s
French AF Mirage IVs
Canadian FB105 Arrows

Crazy I know...

Problem is ground clearance. Hound Dog is a very big missile, most of 10ft tall. Though as long as the wing is at least 10ft off the ground the missile only hangs about 7ft below the pylon.

It's also over 10,000lbs, so the Arrows and Mirage IVs will likely struggle to haul one just from weight.
TSR2s would also struggle to carry any. Not enough space under the belly, and now you're talking trying to carry 10,000lbs under the wings.

Remember, you're really talking about launching a supersonic A4 at someone.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Or just the Navajo.

Navajo was canceled in 1958, Hound Dog, even if ground launched, was the way forward.

 

[Byeman]

and what about launching the Hound Dog with rocket booster ala ZELL ?

When launched from a B-52 and then flying low altitude, it had a range of only 400 miles. It had only a 700 mile range for a high altitude mission. So launching from ground is not going to have much range.

 

[sferrin]

When launched from a B-52 and then flying low altitude, it had a range of only 400 miles. It had only a 700 mile range for a high altitude mission. So launching from ground is not going to have much range.

Hound Dog could climb to high altitude.

 

[_Del_]

Navajo was canceled in 1958, Hound Dog, even if ground launched, was the way forward.

If you want a ground launched Hound Dog, you're better off with the Navajo. Hound Dog is markedly inferior based on the same design evolution for a ground launch profile.

4000 MI range, Mach 3 at altitude
Or
800 MI max when air launched at altitude, Mach 2.1 at altitude

In reality, if you want nuclear a strike and don't care where it's launched from, Atlas-D is ready by 1959. Minuteman is started by then and followed quickly. Both better options than either.

 

[Yellow Palace]

Hound Dog could climb to high altitude.

But doing so would consume fuel, which it didn't have loads of.

The obvious NATO role for a ground launched air-breathing missile is as a supersonic Mace successor. That would require more range than Hound Dog, but not nearly so much as Navajo. The obvious approach to my mind is to start by taking the pilot and landing gear out of an F-104!

 

[sferrin]

But doing so would consume fuel, which it didn't have loads of.

It would still have more range than flying the entire way at low altitude.

The obvious NATO role for a ground launched air-breathing missile is as a supersonic Mace successor. That would require more range than Hound Dog, but not nearly so much as Navajo. The obvious approach to my mind is to start by taking the pilot and landing gear out of an F-104!

It's called "Regulus 2"

 

[Archibald]

Hound Dog was created out of Navaho residual, cheap-and-dirty, by North American Aviation. It was essentially a scaled-down, turbojet-powered and B-52 launched, G-26 Navaho.

Navaho (not NavaJo !) had a big rocket booster to launch it to Mach 3 and fly intercontinental range.

By the way: always had a soft spot for Regulus II.

There are so many cruise missiles, by an large, between 1945 and 1960 it is easy to get lost.
-Rascal (short range from B-47s)
-Matador (subsonic, intercontinental, ground-launched)
-Mace (improved Matador)
-Regulus (subsonic from subs and ships)
-Regulus II (supersonic from subs and ships)
-Navaho (ground launched, supersonic, intercontinental)
-Hound Dog (B-52 launched, supersonic)

 

[Byeman]

It would still have more range than flying the entire way at low altitude.

Still going cost a lot of range. Both climb and get up to speed. So 500 miles or so range.

 

[_Del_]

Navaho (not NavaJo !)

English and Spanish transliteration of the Diné word. Both spellings have been used historically. Pronounced the same.
The nation/tribe goes by "Navajo" now, and living in a state they are native to, I'm sure it won't be the last time I use their contemporary spelling (though you are correct the name given to the project was spelt "Navaho").

 

[Archibald]

English and Spanish transliteration of the Diné word. Both spellings have been used historically. Pronounced the same.
The nation/tribe goes by "Navajo" now, and living in a state they are native to, I'm sure it won't be the last time I use their contemporary spelling (though you are correct the name given to the project was spelt "Navaho").

This. I should have been more precise.

 

[Scott Kenny]

It's called "Regulus 2"

Good point, that would be a far better ground launched cruise missile than trying to ground launch a Navaho Hound Dog.

 

[_Del_]

Good point, that would be a far better ground launched cruise missile than trying to ground launch a Navaho.

The NavaHo (For Archie) was designed to be ground launched...

The reason Regulus II got the axe was the same reason as Navaho. A) costs, B) the existence of ICBMs/IRBMs/SLBMs either operational or in the pipleline to do the same job better over greater distances with next to no interception risk.

Jupiter is operational by 56. Thor is deployed by 58. Atlas is operational by 59. Polaris is doing test shots by 60. Operational a year later. Minuteman speeds through development, deployed in ~63. Etc, etc

 

[Scott Kenny]

The NavaHo (For Archie) was designed to be ground launched...

Oops, meant Hound Dog.

Fixed.

The reason Regulus II got the axe was the same reason as Navaho. A) costs, B) the existence of ICBMs/IRBMs/SLBMs either operational or in the pipleline to do the same job better over greater distances with next to no interception risk.

Regulus specifically was killed by WW2 combat veteran Submarine Admirals saying "How long does this submarine have to be on the surface in order to launch?!? While under air search and likely air attack?!?"

There's a reason why Polaris went straight for the launch-while submerged mode, instead of the first USN SLBMs being launched while surfaced like the Soviets did, and Admirals who had been under air attack in WW2 was that reason.

 

[GeorgeA]

The NavaHo (For Archie) was designed to be ground launched...

The reason Regulus II got the axe was the same reason as Navaho. A) costs, B) the existence of ICBMs/IRBMs/SLBMs either operational or in the pipleline to do the same job better over greater distances with next to no interception risk.

Jupiter is operational by 56. Thor is deployed by 58. Atlas is operational by 59. Polaris is doing test shots by 60. Operational a year later. Minuteman speeds through development, deployed in ~63. Etc, etc

Also the WS-325 MMRBM, although to be fair, that was dead by 1964.

 

[Byeman]

Jupiter is operational by 56. Thor is deployed by 58. Atlas is operational by 59. Polaris is doing test shots by 60. Operational a year later. Minuteman speeds through development, deployed in ~63. Etc, etc

Jupiter wasn't deployed until '61.

 

[Dilandu]

-Matador (subsonic, intercontinental, ground-launched)

Erm. MGM-1 Matador wasn't intercontinental. SM-62 Snark was.

 

[Archibald]

Crap. Forgot that one.
-Rascal (short range from B-47s)
-Matador (subsonic, ground-launched)
-Mace (improved Matador)
-Snark (subsonic, intercontinental)
-Regulus (subsonic from subs and ships)
-Regulus II (supersonic from subs and ships)
-Navaho (ground launched, supersonic, intercontinental)
-Hound Dog (B-52 launched, supersonic)

 

[_Del_]

Jupiter wasn't deployed until '61.

You are right. Flight testing was in progress in 57, the training group was stood up in 58. The Italians didn't deploythem until 61.

That'll teach me not to double check against my memory before posting!

 

[Desertfox]

English and Spanish transliteration of the Diné word. Both spellings have been used historically. Pronounced the same.
The nation/tribe goes by "Navajo" now, and living in a state they are native to, I'm sure it won't be the last time I use their contemporary spelling (though you are correct the name given to the project was spelt "Navaho").

"Navaho" is the English transliteration of the Spanish "Navajo" (from navaja/blade). The proper name for the tribe is "Diné" but the reservation is known as Navajo Nation or Naabeehó Bináhásdzo.

 

[_Del_]

"Navaho" is the English transliteration of the Spanish "Navajo" (from navaja/blade). The proper name for the tribe is "Diné" but the reservation is known as Navajo Nation or Naabeehó Bináhásdzo.

Humbled twice in the same day on the same thread!