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WS-110 (B-70) unknown competitors

Skybolt

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I have no photos or drafts, but a snippet of information:
in the RAND study "Bonber R&D since 1945. The Role of Experience" I found this:
The
Mach 2+ strategic bomber program elicited far more contractor interest,
with numerous firms entering the fray. In July 1955, six companies
were selected as finalists and received study contracts: North
American, Convair, Boeing, Martin, Douglas, and Lockheed. Late in
the year, the Air Force eliminated four of the contenders, leaving
North American and Boeing alone to fight it out with follow-on study
contracts.14
and note 14
14 It is surprising that Convair was eliminated, although the company was clearly fully
occupied with the F-102, F-106, B-58, and nuclear-powered bomber programs. Little
information is available in published sources on the criteria used for selection of the
winners.
.

Now, it seems that Dennis Jenkins has a lot of matter for a second edition of his worderful Valkyrie book.... (not to mention expanding the LRI-X chapter to include the Northrop designs and so on...)
 

Skybolt

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Martin Ws-110 ---> Model 286 (?) (SAC Bomber)
 

hesham

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Dear Orionblamblam,

please tell us about the Convair model number for WS-110.
 

devi

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I know, that only two firms (Boeing and North-American) have offered the projects.
 

Skybolt

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Scott, the design you posted are seaplanes?
 

Skybolt

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Devi, I know that Dennis jenkins in his "Valkyrie" says that Convair, Martin and Dougals declined to compete because thay were developing ballistic missiles and they didn't wanted to dilute their efforts (and that Convair and Lockeed received the WS-125 contract and they regarded WS-110 "easy"!!!). Is's always seemed to me that there was something strange in those reasons. In the '50s (as always) aerospace companies tryed to grab every bit of budget share they could. It was the customers who sometimes decided against one's participation. And, moreover, take Martin: the Titan was made from an entirely different division (Denver) than the airplanes one (Baltimore)! And Convair? It was doing Atlas, why accept the "diluting" WS-125? I think all this is just company PRs ("yes, they invited me but I declined; you know, I was sooooo busy those times..."). I'm a professional PR, I know the beasts very well...
 

Skybolt

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For a prequel look here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,543.0.html :D 8)
Received this from Stan Piet a couple of days ago, now I have permission to post (I wrote on the image a clear indication of its owner... ): unfortunately no model number or specs (only this apparently survived in the Martin archives), apart that it IS a bomber according to Stan. From the model list, this could be number 286 (I prefer this) or number 350 (too late, circa 1958). If anyone has some suggestions, comments, more info, he/she is welcome... :D
And, no, the "117" on the tail is purely decorative, WS-117 was the early recon satellite.. Must start a search in the National Archives, probably I'll have more info in six months :'(
 

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flateric

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This is absolutely great, Skybolt! Thank you and Stan for sharing it - it's not one's ordinary Saturday today)
 

Skybolt

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Thanks Gregory, now let see what our friends beyond the ocean and the Great Plains say... ;)
 

hesham

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Hi,

I think it was Martin Model-350 and not Model-286,because
the Martin Model-365 rotor aircraft was submitted to convertiplane
competition of 1954/55,and logically the nearest design was
Model-350.



And what was that aircraft project for WS-110 ?.
 

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Skybolt

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Could be, although the 350 SAC Bomber is followed by a 351 TAC bomber that seem a couple, same design with different performance. The image was a media reconstruction of what might have been the WS-110A, it was published in Flight, if I remember well.
 

lark

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Personal , I think Skybolt is very close with the Martin Model 286.

It fits perfect in the same time frame (1959) as the North American NA-259
project , phase I development of WS 110.

The illustration shown us by Hesham was one of very early artistst impressions
of this weapons system."Flying Review" of the late fifties called it the "Boron Bomber"
on account of the chemical fuel for the power plants.
 

flateric

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Do this one fit in this topic?

Low-speed investigation of effects of vertical tails on the static stability characteristics of a canard-bomber configuration having a very thin wing and a slender elliptical fuselage

http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19660024046
 

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flateric

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if I understand it right, this is very early 60s studies of using parawing for lowering WS-110 take-off *and landing* (wonder how that stuff would work in transition) speeds
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20040006446_2004003461.pdf
 

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OM

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...Scott, is the trifuselage one on the bottom left the "Dash-To-Target" proposal where the two outer fuselages dropped off just before target arrival?
 

Skybolt

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The first photo of the parawing concept could well be not WS-110-related but Super Hustler-related (expendable stage).
 

OM

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Orionblamblam said:
OM said:
...Scott, is the trifuselage one on the bottom left the "Dash-To-Target" proposal where the two outer fuselages dropped off just before target arrival?

Yes. Though takeoff from rough seas would have been entertaining.

...Hell, the idea of the engines being below the wings *and* the fuselage with no visible skis is what surprises me.
 

KJ_Lesnick

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FlatEric,

Do this one fit in this topic?

Low-speed investigation of effects of vertical tails on the static stability characteristics of a canard-bomber configuration having a very thin wing and a slender elliptical fuselage

http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19660024046


Nice looking design. It also looks like it would have been an excellent wave-riding platform if you look at that wedge structure in front of the inlets...

KJ
 

shockonlip

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Scott,

A few questions.

Re: the 3-view at the top of your "Some of the Convair designs" drawing.

Looks somewhat different from the WS-110A drawings in USBP_Preview
pgs: 23, 24, 28.

I assume the underwing engine pylons rotated upward here as well.

Anyone ever found out more about the Mach 4 Convair seaplane concept?

Thanks
 

Orionblamblam

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shockonlip said:
Looks somewhat different from the WS-110A drawings in USBP_Preview
pgs: 23, 24, 28.

Yes. Convair designed quite a large number of planes along these lines.

I assume the underwing engine pylons rotated upward here as well.

Yes.

Anyone ever found out more about the Mach 4 Convair seaplane concept?

Yes. I've a whole lot that'll be added to the relevant APR issue on this topic.
 

Grey Havoc

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lark said:
Personal , I think Skybolt is very close with the Martin Model 286.

It fits perfect in the same time frame (1959) as the North American NA-259
project , phase I development of WS 110.

My original post was moved by accident to the 'Martin MX-2092 GEBO aircraft' thread, so I'll repost it.

Re. the illustration that Skybolt got from Stan Piet and that hesham has tentatively identified as the Martin Model-350. Are we looking at another turbojet (Wright J67?)/ramjet design here? Or (less likely IMHO) one with a turbojet/rocket combined cycle?
 

Skybolt

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Grey, as they said, "that's a good question"... my own very personal opinion is that the Martin design Stan gave me entered in the WS-110 circus rather late, after NAA and Boeing were already working on it for some time. There is too much in the SR-type of studies done for the Air Force that we don't know, to be sure that the SAC bomber designs in the Martin design list are indeed related to known competition of the GOR, WS, or somethingX type (and we don't even know ALL the GOR, WS and somethingX competitions...).
 

Antonio

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Reading Aerospace Projects Review V5N6 Nov-Dec 2003 page 60, I've found a reference about MX-1847 (nuclear powered) and MX-2145 studies related to the very origins of WS-110. Any idea of dates for this studies?
 

hesham

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Antonio said:
Reading Aerospace Projects Review V5N6 Nov-Dec 2003 page 60, I've found a reference about MX-1847 (nuclear powered) and MX-2145 studies related to the very origins of WS-110. Any idea of dates for this studies?

My dear Antonio,

as I know,MX-1847 was in 1952,and MX-2145 was in 1954.
 

lark

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According to Dennis R. Jenkins in 'Valkyrie , America's Mach 3 super bomber'
MX 1847 and MX 2145 were leading to the Boeing 713 series of designs.
713-1 etc group: chemical configuration
713-2 etc group: nuclear configuration

pages 17 and 21 .illustrations pages 24 on.

Dennis R.Jenskins & Tony R.Landis. Valkyrie..
Specialty Press ,2004
 

KJ_Lesnick

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I'm doing some looking into this, but some information is suggesting that Boeing's MX-2145 were boost-glide concepts. I'm not sure if that's something like Dyna-Soar, or something else...
 
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