US Aircraft in Communist Hands

August 8, 1981.A F-5E defected to the china.(ROCAF's Major Zhi-cheng Huang)
 

Attachments

  • 28kscqg.jpg
    28kscqg.jpg
    250 KB · Views: 147
I remember F-5 on " Top Gun" with fictional designation of "Mig-28" ,so these thread is really interesting !
 
Based on the shown photos I also think that the Phantom and Mirage are just mockups. So another thing seems to be clear now.

And TAKHISS - thanks for the great photos.

Last one thing, related to image from carlo kopp's site: remember that there are a lot of US aircrafts and helicopters in russian/soviet style colours and red star markings in agressors units. F-5, F-14, F-18, UH-60 to name a few.
 
Matej said:
Based on the shown photos I also think that the Phantom and Mirage are just mockups. So another thing seems to be clear now.

And TAKHISS - thanks for the great photos.

Last one thing, related to image from carlo kopp's site: remember that there are a lot of US aircrafts and helicopters in russian/soviet style colours and red star markings in agressors units. F-5, F-14, F-18, UH-60 to name a few.
Click to expand...

Except that particular picture is a known fake.

 
Matej said:
Phantom and Mirage are just mockups.
Click to expand...

sure. this doesn't matter that in other hangar there were not real ones (and they were)
 
US Aircraft in the Soviet Union and Russia
Yefim Gordon and Sergey Komissarov with Dmitry Komissarov
Midland

Chapter Four: Aircraft in a Cold War climate 1945-1991

List of types described:

Boeing B-29
NA F-86
Lockheed C-130
Sikorsky H-19
Sikorsky S-58
Vertol V-44
Lockheed U-2
Boeing 727
Lockheed D-21
Spoils of the Vietnam War: a long list of hardware
Northrop F-5E
McDonnell F-4
Cesna A-37
Bell UH-1
Boeing Vertol CH-47
Vought A-7
Boeing 707
 
Hi Guys,
Over the years the US has tested Russian fighter aircraft at various secrete locations. Has there ever been a Russian aircraft that has made a good impression, that the US were tempted to buy on a large scale?
The US has bought/leased foreign aircraft before i.e. UK ( the Canberra, T-45, T-1, C-23 and the Harrier),
France-Dolphin helicopter, Italy-C27 and Israel-F21.
The US Special Forces use the AN-26 and AN-32 in small numbers.
 
Hi!

As far as I knew, there were some equirements for usage of foreing aircraft in US military services.
Among them - request for production of some parts in USA.

Usage of An-26 and -32 for special operation is new to me. I suppose, this were Ukraine-built aiircraft.
I also remember, that ex-Ukraine Ilyushin Il-78 tanker has beem sold for US-company and I wonder for what purpose? Is there civil aircraft wit inflight refuelling capabilities.

One more thing - in 1970th the Yak-40' version (provisional, as I think) has been presented for Coast Guard' competion for small jet patrol plane. The winner was version of France Falcon (http://www.uscg.mil/datasheet/hu-25.asp)

By the way, as far as I knew, Su-26 aerobatic aircraft was the first Soviet built machine, sold in USA (in this case for individual person).

Cheers!
 
Let us not forget some Soviet aircraft which predated the Su-26 on the US territory—although not as marketed models but evaluations:
- one Yak-23 "Flora" in 1953
- several MiG-17F "Fresco" in the late 1960s under projects HAVE DRILL and HAVE FERRY
- several MiG-21 "Fishbed" in the late 1960s under project HAVE DOUGHNUT and designated YF-110
Besides these now partly declassified evaluations, some more evaluations are still kept secret:
- several MiG-23 and MiG-27 "Flogger" in the 1980s, using the F-113 designation
- other MiGs and Sukhoi fighters, such as the MiG-25 "Foxbat" (perhaps as F-114), Sukhoi Su-7 "Fitter", or the MiG-29 "Fulcrum" (perhaps as F-118).

Attached are two pictures of the Yak-23 and two more of the MiG-21.
 

Attachments

  • yak23us1.jpg
    yak23us1.jpg
    7.7 KB · Views: 867
  • yak23us2.jpg
    yak23us2.jpg
    6.8 KB · Views: 853
  • HAVEDOUGHNUTColor4.jpg
    HAVEDOUGHNUTColor4.jpg
    38.9 KB · Views: 331
  • HAVEDOUGHNUTfrtqtr.jpg
    HAVEDOUGHNUTfrtqtr.jpg
    67.3 KB · Views: 348
Stargazer2006 said:
Let us not forget some Soviet aircraft which predated the Su-26 on the US territory—although not as marketed models but evaluations:
- one Yak-23 "Flora" in 1953
- several MiG-17F "Fresco" in the late 1960s under projects HAVE DRILL and HAVE FERRY
- several MiG-21 "Fishbed" in the late 1960s under project HAVE DOUGHNUT and designated YF-110
Besides these now partly declassified evaluations, some more evaluations are still kept secret:
- several MiG-23 and MiG-27 "Flogger" in the 1980s, using the F-113 designation
- other MiGs and Sukhoi fighters, such as the MiG-25 "Foxbat" (perhaps as F-114), Sukhoi Su-7 "Fitter", or the MiG-29 "Fulcrum" (perhaps as F-118).

Attached are two pictures of the Yak-23 and two more of the MiG-21.
Click to expand...

Steve Davies recently published a great book on these programs:

Red Eagles: America's Secret MiGs (General Aviation): Davies, Steve, Jumper, General J.: 9781846033780: Amazon.com: Books

Red Eagles: America's Secret MiGs (General Aviation) [Davies, Steve, Jumper, General J.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Red Eagles: America's Secret MiGs (General Aviation)
www.amazon.com
Well worth a read. The US programs were divided into two, technical exploitation (Red Hats, flying out of Groom Lake) and tactical training (Red Eagles, out of Tonopah). The Red Eagles programs have been mostly declassified and are the focus of his book.
 
Will this mean the US Navy will use the Su-34 or Su-33 models if the F-35 is a flop or cancelled due to Congress cut backs?
 
McColm said:
Will this mean the US Navy will use the Su-34 or Su-33 models if the F-35 is a flop or cancelled due to Congress cut backs?
Click to expand...

That's a fairly daft question. The Su-34 isn't carrier capable, and the Su-33 isn't in any way comparable to the F-35. Regardless, the US is never going to buy Russian combat aircraft.
 
I second that. From a psychological point of view, these aircraft are still the weapons of the former arch-enemy's armed forces, and it would be a hard thing to swallow for the Congressmen, let alone the taxpayers... Besides, they are still in use in quite a few potentially enemy countries, which would no doubt create some heavy confusion in combat situations!
 
Stargazer2006 said:
I second that. From a psychological point of view, these aircraft are still the weapons of the former arch-enemy's armed forces, and it would be a hard thing to swallow for the Congressmen, let alone the taxpayers... Besides, they are still in use in quite a few potentially enemy countries, which would no doubt create some heavy confusion in combat situations!
Click to expand...

We're becoming more and more open about buying foreign designs in the past few years, albeit as long as final product was built in the US, like the T-45, the T-6, M9, the M240, the Stryker, the KC-45, and the VH-71. If the Russians submitted a competent design and found a US partner for local production, why WOULDN'T we buy it?

And yes, we've come close: http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/ma-31.html
 
In part 5, there are several Have Blue video clips. Have those ever been released before?

As for the whole presentation above, was there an all English version without the German narrorator?
 
this Have Blue footage was shown partially before
ARTE is ZDF subsidary, so don't think that English version was ever made (so far)
 
US/NATO Fighters tested in Soviet Union ?

Hi All,

I have discovered a photograph of a Phantom and Mirage fighters (covered with tarpaulins) besides a Bison bomber at Ramenskoye (Zhukovski) in an article from Military Airpower Review.

The photograph was probably taken in the 60's or early 70's.

We all know the "Constant Peg" program related to Migs tested by US in the Nevada desert (Groom Lake and Tonopah). Are informations about US/NATO aircraft tested by USSR available now ?

Thanks for the info !

All the Best,

XB-35
 
Re: US/NATO Fighters tested in Soviet Union ?

Ah you have me hooked XB-35!!
Can we see this photo/picture???


Regards
Pioneer
 
Re: US/NATO Fighters tested in Soviet Union ?

Hi Pionneer,

Unfortunately, I don't have a scan, but there is probably someone on the forum who has the book and a scan to show the picture.

I will check the correct number and title of the magazine for further information.


All the Best,

XB-35
 
ucon said:
Hi all!
Two Phantoms have taken in Vietnam and delivered to MDB.
Also one F-5, and Mirage F-1 used for research work.
Detailed info in "Our wings" magazine published by Avico Press.
Click to expand...

Thank's ucon
I agree with the analogy that they look more like mock-ups!
Interesting 'twin' Aim-9 Sidewinder arrangement on the Mirage III!!

Regards
Pioneer
 
Re: US/NATO Fighters tested in Soviet Union ?

XB-35 said:
Hi All,

I have discovered a photograph of a Phantom and Mirage fighters (covered with tarpaulins) besides a Bison bomber at Ramenskoye (Zhukovski) in an article from Military Airpower Review.
Click to expand...

Only one photo ever seen... and they were COVERED?? It doesn't strike me as very Soviet-like to have possessed such war prizes and not show them off in style. Full-scale decoys to fool Western observers? Unless of course the aircraft were temporarily forwarded by some foreign ally playing a double game (as the Czechs did with the Yak-23) and they didn't want the original national insigniae to show... Interesting anyway, but I'm sure that if there was something to it, then some Russian or Ukrainian magazine would have published something by now about such Cold War time evaluations... don't you think so?
 
Antonio said:
US Aircraft in the Soviet Union and Russia
Yefim Gordon and Sergey Komissarov with Dmitry Komissarov
Midland

Chapter Four: Aircraft in a Cold War climate 1945-1991

List of types described:

Boeing B-29
NA F-86
Lockheed C-130
Sikorsky H-19
Sikorsky S-58
Vertol V-44
Lockheed U-2
Boeing 727
Lockheed D-21
Spoils of the Vietnam War: a long list of hardware
Northrop F-5E
McDonnell F-4
Cesna A-37
Bell UH-1
Boeing Vertol CH-47
Vought A-7
Boeing 707
Click to expand...
Are there any photos of these aircraft in Soviet Hands that have been published or made public?
 
Silencer1 said:
"Hi! ... Su-26 aerobatic aircraft was the first Soviet built machine, sold in USA (in this case for individual person).

Cheers!"
Click to expand...
This is really straying from the original question.
Back in 1992 and 1993, I worked for Butler Parachute Systems when we designed a series of replacement pilot emergency parachutes for communist-surplus airplanes that flooded to the west immediately after the Berlin Wall fell. It was such a huge surge that the FAA imposed a temporary ban on any more imports until they could catch up with paperwork. Most of these communist-surplus airplanes were registered as experimental/restricted/demonstration.

New production Sukhoi 26 and 29 were imported by Pampano Air Center in Florida.
New production Zlins and Yak 55 aerobatic airplanes were also imported. This was the first time most Americans had seen titanium exhausts and landing gear on civilian airplanes.
Military surplus: Antonov 2, Polish Ikarus jet trainer, L-38 and L-39 jet trainers, MiG 15, MiG 17, MiG 21, Nanjing CA-6,, Sokol Galeb, Yak 18, 52, 55, etc.

Since their pilot emergency parachutes were "borrowed" from jet fighters, they were far too complex for low to medium altitude aerobatics. Furthermore, they came without manuals written in English, French, German or Spanish, so I could not repack them even if a wanted to.
 
Last edited:
The Soviets at least got a D-21B drone. The Chinese got another one, plus a load of Ryan Firebees.
And the Soviets of course teamed with North Vietnam to get their eyes on the thousands of US aircraft wrecks littering their countryside... including AIM-7 Sparrows.
Both countries went into reverse-engineering overdrive.
 
sat_dxer said:
This place has an assortment of models:
en.wikipedia.org

Victorious War Museum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

In one video on-line spotted the wreckage of an AD-4.
Click to expand...
There are actually in this museum a lot of US aircraft wrecks.
www.airliners.net

Aviation Photo #0944080: North American F-86D Sabre - South Korea - Air Force

Found among many other wrecks in the cellar of the DPRK War Museum in Pyongyang. This Sabre was probably shot down January 1964 near the DMZ by North Korean Forces. - Photo taken at Pyongyang [OFF AIRPORT] in North Korea on May 9, 2005.
www.airliners.net www.airliners.net
www.airliners.net

Aviation Photo #2386538: Hiller OH-23D Raven (UH-12D) - USA - Army

On display at the newly renovated war museum in Pyongyang. On one side they have displayed allied vehicles/aircraft and on the other side is the Korean hardware. The image in the background seems to tell us that this helicopter was captured on 17/05/1963. - Photo taken at Pyongyang [OFF AIRPORT]...
www.airliners.net www.airliners.net
www.airliners.net

Aviation Photo #2386655: Douglas AD-2 Skyraider - USA - Navy

On display at the recently renovated war museum in Pyongyang. Lots of old/shot down Korean and Allied aircraft/vehicles are on display here. - Photo taken at Pyongyang [OFF AIRPORT] in North Korea on September 20, 2013.
www.airliners.net www.airliners.net
www.airliners.net

Aviation Photo #0876899: Grumman F9F-2 Panther - USA - Navy

Apparently shot down by the North Korean Army. May also have been a US Marines aircraft. In the D.P.R.K. War Museum. - Photo taken at Pyongyang [OFF AIRPORT] in North Korea on May 9, 2005.
www.airliners.net www.airliners.net
www.airliners.net

Aviation Photo #0870585: Douglas AD-2 Skyraider - USA - Navy

Stored inside the DPRK War Museum in Pyongyang, presented in not so great conditon (shot down in 1952). - Photo taken at Pyongyang [OFF AIRPORT] in North Korea on May 9, 2005.
www.airliners.net www.airliners.net
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom