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Unknown King-Tiger variant the "Small-Tiger"

moin1900

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Hi everybody

Here a very unknown Tiger II Project
Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf. B "Klein Tiger" - “Small Tiger”
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-vi-tiger-ii-ausf-b-konigstiger-kingroyaltiger-tiger-ii-sd-kfz-182.htm
Maybe someone have a drawing of this tank ?

Many greetings and many thanks for help
 

Wurger

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hello :),

no drawings, and that information translated literally from Fritz Hahn`s "Waffen und Geheimwaffe des Deutschen Heeres 1933-1945". No further data.
 

sagallacci

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Sounds like a semi-hoax or particularly wacky paper project. 33tons, that's substaintially less than a Panther, and a 100mm gun, not a likely calibre.
 

Wurger

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Any investigation, even scant, prior to posting this project as a hoax would be desirable. Do you have any information on this "Klein Tiger"?
Meanwhile, try to access this site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_cm_PAW_600
100mm is a likely caliber, indeed.
 

smurf

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a 100mm gun, not a likely calibre.
But see:
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/panzerabwehrkanonen-R.htm
where it says
Bei Krupp wurde die 10-cm-PWK-10 H 64 entwickelt, welche mit dem System des "übergroßen Ladungsraumes" arbeitete. Ein Expansionsraum war konzentrisch um den Ladungsraum angeordnet und mit diesem durch zahlreiche Öffnungen verbunden. Die Treibladung wurde dabei als Ringkartusche um den Schaft der Wurfgranate gelegt. Diese Waffen hatten zwar Schußweiten von fast 5.000 m, bei einem Trefferbild von 1,5 x 1,5 m auf 1.000 m war diese Entfernung jedoch die maximalste zur Panzerbekämpfung. Die 900 kg schweren Waffen hatten ein 2.400 mm langes Rohr, aus dem eine 6,6 kg schwere Wurfgranate verschossen wurde. Diese konnte auf 1.000 m bis zu 200 mm Panzerung durchschlagen-
 

Michel Van

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and in englisch (i hope you can read this)

With Krupp the 10-cm-PWK-10 H 64 was developed, which operated with the system of
the “extra large load space”.
An expansion space was concentrically around the load space arranged and with this by numerous openings connected.
The propellant was put thereby as ring cartouche around the shank of the throw shell.
These weapons had ranges of fire of almost 5,000 m
with a shot pattern of 1,5 x 1.5 m to 1.000 m was this distance however the maximalste to the tank fight.
The 900 kg of heavy weapons had a 2,400 mm long pipe, made of which 6.6 kg a heavy throw shell was fired. This could pierce on 1.000 m up to 200 mm armoring
 

smurf

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Thank you, MV. Translation from German is now a slow job for me. My skill has gone rusty. The 100mm operates on the same principle as the gun described on the Wiki link. It would thus be very much lighter, and exert much lower recoil forces, than a conventional high velocity 100mm, enabling the carrying vehicle to be lighter. It is probably a mistake to think of "small Tiger" as a direct development of "King Tiger" - rather, a complete redesign to carry out the same function. Perhaps translating "klein Tiger" as "mini-Tiger" would be better.
 

Abraham Gubler

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Not 'small' but a Bengal Tiger tank (no such thing as a "King Tiger", "Konigstiger" is German for Bengal Tiger) with 105mm gun.
 

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Rickshaw

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Abraham Gubler said:
Not 'small' but a Bengal Tiger tank (no such thing as a "King Tiger", "Konigstiger" is German for Bengal Tiger) with 105mm gun.

Dunno which German dictionary you're using, mate but mine translates "Konigstiger" as "King Tiger" or "Royal Tiger". No mention of "Bengal Tiger" which would be in German, gee, "Bengal Tiger" ;)
 

Michel Van

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rickshaw said:
Abraham Gubler said:
Not 'small' but a Bengal Tiger tank (no such thing as a "King Tiger", "Konigstiger" is German for Bengal Tiger) with 105mm gun.

Dunno which German dictionary you're using, mate but mine translates "Konigstiger" as "King Tiger" or "Royal Tiger". No mention of "Bengal Tiger" which would be in German, gee, "Bengal Tiger" ;)

in correct German it's called "Bengalischer Tiger" Wat is antiqued name for "Königstiger", in English this called a "Bengal Tiger" (König means King or Royal )
 

Abraham Gubler

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rickshaw said:
Dunno which German dictionary you're using, mate but mine translates "Konigstiger" as "King Tiger" or "Royal Tiger". No mention of "Bengal Tiger" which would be in German, gee, "Bengal Tiger" ;)

There is a big difference between translation and transliteration. I guess you never stopped to ask what a German in the 1940s would call a ‘King/Royal Tiger’? A big cat wearing a crown? If it helps in English a Bengal Tiger used to be called a “Royal Bengal Tiger” and the Germans are allowed to call things by different names... The King Tiger name for the Panzer VI Ausf. B Tiger II has come to dominate because of the simplistic transliteration of the German nickname. Generations of ‘too smart but not smart enough’ commentators transliterating a name rather than translating it.
 

edwest

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Confusing. The translation suggests a rocket assisted shell.






Ed
 

TomS

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edwest said:
Confusing. The translation suggests a rocket assisted shell.

The mention of an expansion space linked to the main charge by a series of vent holes suggests something like the hi/low pressure arrangement (as mentioned in the linked Wiki page on the 8cm PAW 600). I'd be curious to see the velocities achieved.

On Furhter research, there's a wiki page for the actual weapon in question:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10H64

The article talks about a velocity of 550-600m/sec firing unspun fin-stabilized shaped charge rounds.
 

Abraham Gubler

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TomS said:
The article talks about a velocity of 550-600m/sec firing unspun fin-stabilized shaped charge rounds.

There is a picture of this weapon on a carriage in Hogg's 'German Artillery of WW2'. It has a massive muzzle brake. I'll scan it and upload it later today. That is if I can get over the *massive* personal insult of being called 'Humpty' by some fool (double negative equals a positive) who doesn't like new information that upsets his ignorance limited but comfortable view of German WWII weapons.

As you can see by these pictures the PAW 1000 clearly fires a 105mm mortar bomb via its low/high pressure system. The muzzle brake is pretty extreme.
 

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Colonial-Marine

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I fail to see how calling the Tiger II by it's rather unusual English translation is superior to calling it the King Tiger which I believe was commonly used by Allied soldiers anyway. If you want to be precise you might as well just call it the Königstiger.
 

TomS

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Abraham Gubler said:
TomS said:
The article talks about a velocity of 550-600m/sec firing unspun fin-stabilized shaped charge rounds.
As you can see by these pictures the PAW 600 clearly fires a 105mm mortar bomb via its low/high pressure system. The muzzle brake is pretty extreme.

Actually the PAW 600 fired a round based on an 81mm mortar bomb -- the larger weapon was the PAW 1000 od 10H64 and fired a round based on ammunition for the 10.5 cm Neberwerfer 35 heavy mortar.
 

Abraham Gubler

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TomS said:
Actually the PAW 600 fired a round based on an 81mm mortar bomb -- the larger weapon was the PAW 1000 od 10H64 and fired a round based on ammunition for the 10.5 cm Neberwerfer 35 heavy mortar.

Yep, just a typo in the caption that I've passed on. These are pictures of the mock up of the 105mm high-low pressure gun. In the text it is correctly referred to as the PAW 1000 later renamed the 10H64.
 

Colonial-Marine

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Abraham Gubler said:
The world really needed this opinion…

The point is that ZIE GERMANZ called the Tiger II the Bengal Tiger which in German is said “Konigstiger”. Sure it was transliterated to ‘Royal Tiger’ or ‘King Tiger’ and that subsequently became its nickname amongst English speaking communities. So if you want to write its correct popular name in English as given to it by its operators you have to call it a “Bengal Tiger”. This problem didn’t seem to eventuate with the Panzerjager Nashorn being called the “Nose Horn” rather than the Rhinoceros as a clear indication that the transliteration phenom is only a problem with words that sound similar to their English counterparts.

Calling the Tiger II the Bengal Tiger is not superior, inferior or whatever it is just more accurate when used in the context of German naming. Like calling a Su-27 the Cracker (Sushka) rather than the Flanker. That this point of information has acted as lightening rod for forum fools who seem to have a major problem with it is an unfortunate side effect.

Go ahead and call it that if you want then. I just happen to think one of the names for it commonly used by the Allies and almost always used today is just as valid as the more precise German to English translation. On a similar manner one doesn't always refer to aircraft by their true name either. Fighting Falcon or Viper, Thunderbolt II or Warthog, doesn't matter as long as your referring to te same machine. The Su-27 has also been referred to with other names by Sukhoi, Russian pilots, and etc.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Removed more argument between Colonel-Marine and Abraham Gubler.

Lets consider the "King Tiger/Bengal Tiger" debate ended. Bengal Tiger is a better translation of the German word Königstiger than King Tiger. King Tiger is the normally-used translation in English books on armour. End of debate, lets discuss something else now.
 

Abraham Gubler

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overscan said:
Removed more argument between Colonel-Marine and Abraham Gubler.

Thank you! There are a few more posts up above that could be cut out.

overscan said:
Lets consider the "King Tiger/Bengal Tiger" debate ended. Bengal Tiger is a better translation of the German word Königstiger than King Tiger. King Tiger is the normally-used translation in English books on armour. End of debate, lets discuss something else now.

There was a debate?
 

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