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I've been thinking recently about exports of UK combat aircraft. What examples do people think were "successful"?

In my mind success is some sort of function of export numbers relative to UK numbers, and numbers of different export countries. My list of "successes" from post WW2 is below:

  • Gloster Meteor; mostly driven by the fact it was available as a first jet fighter for many air forces?
  • dH Vampire and Venom; as above?
  • Hawker Sea Hawk; as above but for more specialist naval users?
  • Hawker Hunter; massively helped by financial assistance from US
  • Folland Gnat; mostly driven by large order / licence production from India
  • EE Canberra; no real Western alternative given US focus on strategic bombers like B-47? definitely helped by US order for B-57
  • HS Harrier; a working VSTOL aircraft unlike all the others, driven by large US order / licence production
  • BAC Strikemaster; cheap and available
  • HS Hawk; cheap, partly driven by large US order / licence

  • Sepecat Jaguar? Maybe marginal success compared to the above
Any others I've missed or other thoughts?
 
I think that is a fair list.

Meteor - a success in terms of users and licence-built in Low Countries as a fighter and trainer
Vampire & Venom - US MAP funds made European licence-building in France and Italy a reality, world-wide sales as a fighter and trainer and in nightfighter and naval form too
Sea Hawk - I think it counts as an unlikely success as it did make sales to two NATO nations and India. MAP funds certainly helped secure the Dutch order, possibly West Germany's too
Hunter - a huge success, as you say MAP funds again greased some of the European production lines, second-hand sales were a welcome boost (perhaps too welcome as a distraction to new sales), hell Hunters are still changing hands for defence training providers today!
Gnat - not so sure we can chalk up this as a success, only 13 to Finland where they proved quite problematic and 2 to Yugoslavia, so without the Indian order it was a mere drop in the ocean. Gnat trainer was a non-starter export wise too (not even sure it was ever marketed tbh).
Canberra - agreed, a sales success both as new-build and second-hand sales (some of the latter were hampered by the US refusing export licences for MAP-funded B.2s/B.6s to be sold on)
Harrier - success is a relative term, McD sold/leased more than BAe ever did (Indian Sea Harriers) and whether the original AV-8 USMC deal gives enough kudos is open to question (Canberra had global sales far beyond the B-57 deal). Arguably HSA flogged away the rights and the UK government let the USA pick up the Harrier II tab.
Strikemaster - I'd add the Jet Provost to this too as export ones were armed, very successful
Hawk - massive success, every continent (even places like South Korea), I'd say even without the T-45 it mopped the Alpha Jet no sweat, I'd rate the Hawk's sales impact even greater than that of the Hunter, perhaps equal to Vampnoms. Hawk 200 is best forgotten - BAe seemed to have talked themselves into the 200 despite early misgivings it would ever be profitable
Jaguar - I'd say its a success, sure small numbers to niche oil-rich operators but again HAL has churned out a lot , "could do better" would sum up the Jaguar's end of school report I think. (Plus the Mitsubishi F-2 imitation is flattering too)

If we added combat helicopters to the list you'd have to include Lynx, made a huge impact on naval helicopter sales, something Wildcat couldn't (sadly) replicate.

If you took out the MAP funding for the 1950s generation I wonder how things would stack up? I think that funding was vital for cash-strapped European air forces and industries to get restarted. Noticeably the 60s and 70s were much leaner without easy cash floating about, just refurbs and Strikemasters mostly.
 
Excellent summaries above.
- Ironically France got Vampires (1948-51, first jet in service after the overweight Espadon failure, and before the Ouragan kicked in). Plus Venom under licence, same company - SNCASE in Cannes. In both cases SNCASE loved the design so much, they made their own improvements.
- Just like the Hunter you mention, Mystere IVA was immensely helped by copious MAP funding. Nothing to be ashamed about.
- Canberra did wonders, it was an excellent aircraft.
- It was at the Mach 2 level that things went down the drain.
- Jaguar wasn't exactly necessary to both sides in the first place, fell victim to massive requirement creep until it wasn't a trainer anymore
- Of course Dassault snatching from Breguet the french slice of Jaguar did not helped.
- ironically the Hawk versus Alphajet fratricide duel largely avenged the Jaguar being screwed by the Mirage V and F1.

The most baffling story is the Harrier. "BIG WING Harrier" should have preserved the british edge over the Americans there. Instead it was screwed, then reborn by MDD as the AV-8B, which in turn bet the crap of SHAR and older Harriers... including in RAF service, what a pity.
 
The Tornado and Typhoon should also be on the list. Like the Jaguar they are multinational programs but probably that’s a point that could be equally made about about some of the other aircraft on the list and the critical role of US funding in their development and orders (some “pure” British aircraft in the list arguably joint projects with the US on that basis, an alternative perspective that may help put the later move into multinational projects into a more historically accurate and less jingoistic context).
 
I find it difficult to say Tornado and Typhoon are export successes - something independent of whether they are successful programmes. Politically flogging a few dozen ex UK aircraft to Saudi and a few others buying handfuls of Typhoon is a very different level of exports to the other aircraft on the list.

But they are very different programmes because the critical mass of aircraft numbers is present from the start from the international partners
 
The problem for the UK is that its key military aircraft programmes are often not export successes.
The V bombers of course head this list.
Shackleton and Nimrod ASW (few to S Africa)
Buccaneer (SA again)
Javelin.
Lightning (Saudi and Kuwait US helped)
Sea Vixen.
Scimitar.
Belfast.
VC10.
Argosy.
Beverley.
Hastings.
Andover.
 
I agree that you can't really count partners on a collaborative venture as 'exports' since they are stakeholders in the design and production phases. SABCA, Fokker, Fiat and SNCASE building under licence were less collaborators but sub-producers, thankfully the US bankrolled these efforts - they could have just bankrolled F-84 or F-86 production lines instead.
But we have to remember that Britain had a captive market - war devastated competitors still picking up the pieces. Only France was building jet fighters, no-one else had the capability. So they built or brought what they could. By the mid-1960s they had rebuilt and were seeking developments as equal partners and its no coincidence British exports fall off a cliff at this time and after the post-57 cuts they had little to offer for sale apart from Lightnings and refurbs of trusty 50s designs. Even the Strikemaster had roots in the mid-50s Jet Provost. Harrier and Hawk were the only all-British offerings for the 70s and Harrier was niche, Hawk thankfully was spot on for what the market needed. Otherwise it would have been game over I think by 1980.

Tornado was a niche high-end strike platform, ADV was never going to compete with F-15 for the high-end fighter market. Exports were less vital to defray R&D costs for that programme, at the time export 'strike' was thought to be Jags for the big spenders and Strikemasters/Hawks for the pennywise.

Typhoon has, quite frankly, underperformed on the export market. Perhaps having three/four nations all trying to flog them to different market areas is just too confusing? Airbus backed deals seem to come unstuck with high support costs and BAE's sales to the Middle East seem like very cozy relationships (I don't think BAE has made any non-Middle East Hawk or Typhoon sales since 2005...) and for none of those ME users is Typhoon their sole fighter asset (Qatar's fleet is as polyglot as Egypt or Malaysia's).

Yes the lack of export success for Andover is puzzling given a fair few air forces did purchase 748s with side cargo doors.
BAe of course tried the BAe 146 STA in the 1980s, perhaps thinking air forces wouldn't mind just having a side door given so many military 748s didn't have tail ramps. It backfired. The tail loader stayed a drawing board dream.
 
Mulling this over a bit more to pull out some trends:

  • Not much to learn from the immediate post war generation. Exports driven by availability and lack of equivalent products in most other countries. Also helped by US MAP industrial subsidies.
  • Export to US: find a niche where they don't have an equivalent programme/product. Volume of US sales basically guarantees "success". Might be some particular performance thing (e.g. VSTOL for Harrier) or balance of cost/performance (e.g. Canberra Vs XB-51, Goshawk Vs AlphaJet or new build).
  • Wider exports: balance of cost/performance with emphasis on the cost side. Hawk and Jaguar (ish) my examples here. But for these lower end systems increasingly we see that the countries who want to buy in bulk are opting for domestically developed options, and China in particular beginning to make inroads e.g. JL-10 to UAE so this seems a much more contested market today.
I'm not really sure where this leaves UK defence aerospace exports today. Maybe locking in countries as development partners in an international programme is actually more sensible until we figure out how to do something the US isn't doing again.
 
I'm not really sure where this leaves UK defence aerospace exports today. Maybe locking in countries as development partners in an international programme is actually more sensible until we figure out how to do something the US isn't doing again.
I'd say nowhere because we haven't got anything to export!
Hawk is dead. Typhoon is nearly finished in terms of production and all the usual greased palms in the Middle East already have them.

Tempest is going to have to do a lot better than hoping the usual suspects (Saudi-Oman-Kuwait) buy Tempests, SCAFs, F-35D+ AND NGADs to have a bankrupting fleet of super toys. Italy hasn't exactly made massive success with the M-345/M-346 series in terms of global sales, SAAB has admitted its sales policy for Gripen hasn't worked and Japan is yet to make an international sale irrespective of home restrictions loosening. I'd honestly be amazed if more than 300 Tempests ever get built.

On recent form Dassault seem to have hit the jackpot lately - I suspect with a lot of diplomatic help and those cut-price second-hand sales didn't hurt either. BAE could flog off the Trache 1 Tiffys but so far, the government haven't gone down this route despite earmarking them for retirement. Even if they did its shades of renovating 20-year-old Hunters - it doesn't take you very far.

I think if BAE had a UCAV then it might sell reasonably well - but they ain't got one and Templest LANCA (not Mossie II anymore) is not necessarily going to be a BAE product. It could well be a Ghost Bat or another off-the-shelf type.
The US is always going to be doing something. Heretically as it may be to say but BAE Systems is doing far better out of systems than airframes - it's probably doing better building ships (T26 and T31 exports) than it is aircraft!
 
It may heretical (at least for some on this forum) to say but isn’t BAE well on the way to becoming more a US rather than UK centric firm with some surviving UK legacy interests that are very consciously in managed decline.

Tempest, on an industrial level, appears more an attempt at delaying/ reducing the rate of that decline (or at least that reduction in the rate of the UK’s decline of importance to BaE and the wider military aviation sector) than a realistic reversal of that process.
 
BAES is already majority US-owned and shouldn't be viewed as a UK company much more than Lockheed Martin UK are.

The strategic push with Tempest is more for sustainment of sufficient industrial capability in the UK to give Freedom of Action (flexibility) in the future, i.e. more about defining and sustaining a certain level in certain areas rather than declining or growing. Any exports simply reduce the amount of UK government funding to achieve this, but don't really contribute to success or failure of this programme.
 
I think if BAE had a UCAV then it might sell reasonably well - but they ain't got one
What sort of UCAV? It feels like something fairly high end and air-to-surface focused for which there isn't currently a competitor.

If countries want to go bomb stuff in A2AD environment (e.g. Poland, Finland) then this UCAV might fit, but they also want to air defence, in which case buy F-35 that can do both roles? and actually exists.
 
What sort of UCAV? It feels like something fairly high end and air-to-surface focused for which there isn't currently a competitor.
That's a fair question. Arguably BAE/MOD doesn't know the answer either.

Mantis was purely proof of concept; it did lead to the BAE/Dassault Telemos but in that died when France pulled out in favour of EADS Talarion - which itself went nowhere despite Turkish and South Korean interest (only lukewarm interest from the intended EU market). The RAF's Project Scavenger to replace Reaper to which Telemos was a contender morphed into Project Protector which led to Protector (Predator B) being selected in 2016.

The stealthy Corax, stated to have been a reconnaissance UAV seems to have sunk without trace post 2004.

Taranis was designed to enable the UK to maintain its sovereign aircraft and UAV/UCAV construction capability. Again, Anglo-French cooperation was going to tie in with Dassault nEUROn to form a European FCAS. Then everyone did a volte face (perhaps led by Dassault) and decided a manned 6th Gen fighter offered a much better FCAS solution (and much better sales kerching) - and thus Tempest and SCAF were born.

HERTI and Fury have promised much and been widely touted, HERTI was trialed in Afghanistan. But again, nothing has materialised since in terms of exports or UK users.

Most these were all mid-2000s-2010s projects and partly due to politics and partly due to changing definitions of what was required their success has been mixed. Since then it's been very quiet in terms of any new developments beyond continuing work on MAGMA. Clearly with Corax and Taranis BAE were aiming at the top-tier of UAV technology. And while perhaps Mantis could have given Protector/Predator a run for its money, it's clear than the mid-tier UAV market is crowded and a lot of nations find it within their grasp of national capabilities (Turkey ditched Talarion for example to go it alone). There probably isn't much future in this segment for BAE, especially when the RAF has already chosen a US system. Demon/MAGMA with its flapless research might indeed point to the future with US interest etc., it could be hugely important but again they might not be able to capitalise on the technology - or if they do we'll probably see the 'Star and Bars' on it first.

BAE didn't take part in the Lightweight Affordable Novel Combat Aircraft (LANCA)/Project Mosquito. The contract went to Spirit (Bombardier UK as was and Northrop Grumman UK) in 2019 after 4 years of concept studies initiated by the RAF Rapid Capabilities Office - which were presumably not "rapid" enough and in 2022 were shelved for other more "cost-effective" methods - whatever that means/is...
Since Tempest isn't due in service until 2035 it's open to question what UCAV (if any) might be partnered with it. Loyal wingmen tend to ebb and flow in popularity as the technology matures/fails to meet expectations in a cycle. Today they are waning in popularity but in 2-3 years' time there might be another boom with every Air Marshal/analyst telling us they are just around the corner.
Could BAE really reboot Taranis on its own without outside risk/funding partners? Could MAGMA be scaled up to Taranis size?

Project Vixen for the Royal Navy's carriers seems to remain in being, but things are very low key. In 2021 it was envisioned as being in service (or at least the catapults for it) by 2023-24, although at some stage it seems to have linked with Mosquito too which was a longer-term project, but there seems to have been little progress and again an off-the-shelf UAV seems the most likely solution.

As you say - who would have the deep pockets/need to purchase such a high-end UCAV? Well maybe the Arab states will want to boost their polyglot fighter fleets with polyglot UCAV fleets too? But I agree it's a niche market - which is why the 2010 UCAV FCAS idea died in favour of manned fighters. A but like Boom's struggle to get their supersonic airliner off the ground, the investors need to be convinced there is a market and at this moment that market isn't obvious.
 
BAE didn't take part in the Lightweight Affordable Novel Combat Aircraft (LANCA)/Project Mosquito. The contract went to Spirit (Bombardier UK as was and Northrop Grumman UK) in 2019 after 4 years of concept studies initiated by the RAF Rapid Capabilities Office - which were presumably not "rapid" enough and in 2022 were shelved for other more "cost-effective" methods - whatever that means/is...
It was interesting that as soon as it was shelved BAE had their concept CGI up pretty sharpish..
 
Interesting thoughts Hood. Got to remember that almost the entireity of all that was funded by UK MOD not BAES PV, although under UK regs then BAES would own the IP - so they can exploit it :D

Maybe success should simply be delivering something UK MOD wants to time and cost?
 
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