Swap UK with France during the Falklands War.

[NOMISYRRUC]

Would the consequences of this see the second CdG class carrier?

Very very likely, IMO.

FWIW and IIRC.

The French Government had to slash its public spending in the 1990s to meet the Euro's convergence criteria and PAN.2 was a victim of said public spending cuts. (PAN.1 became CdG).

The only countries that met the conversion criteria were the UK and Germany, except that HMG had opted out from joining the Euro.

My guess is that it's still cancelled. That is unless we can turn Les Trente Glorieuses of OTL into Les Cinquante or Soixante Glorieuses ITTL.

 

[zen]

Another thought.
Eventually Super Etendard gained a compact AESA set in limited numbers.
But in a post French Falklands War style environment, could they have gained something equivalent to Blue Vixen?
Presumably integrating MICA?

 

[Archibald]

Another thought.
Eventually Super Etendard gained a compact AESA set in limited numbers.
But in a post French Falklands War style environment, could they have gained something equivalent to Blue Vixen?
Presumably integrating MICA?

The question of replacing Crusaders wasn't tackled until 1985 or even beyond. Probably because of the Clem / Foch / CdG transition being linked to Rafale IOC, all of them by 1995 (actually took until 2001).

Crucially the Aéronavale stayed out of Rafale until at least 1987. When they asked to buy F-18 Hornets, and were rebuked by 1989.

- Fact was that Dassault had befriended both President Miterrand (socialist) and PM Chirac (the right); both sides of the political aisle, taking no risk.

- Fact was that Clemenceau was badly wornout and would go by 1996

- so the real problem when looking for a Crusader replacement was to find one that could fly out of Foch (in much better shape than Clem, good enough until 2004) and CdG.

-The only option left was Hornet, but it had the same limits as Rafale, on Foch: the BS5s were worn out and breaking up regularly; and unable to catapult more than 17 tons at a sufficient velocity. Hornet or Rafale, that amounted to barely a pair of wingtip AAMs and little internal fuel.

The Aéronavale was always an outlier: willing to buy US aircraft if France and Dassault couldn't do the job. This harcked back to 1939 and the V-156F dive bombers : followed by Seafire, Corsairs, Aquilons, and Crusaders.
When arm-twisted into buying the flawed Jaguar-M, they had no qualms throwing it under a bus and asking for A-4s or A-7s instead. When Super Etendard was finally rammed into their throats, they still asked for J52s rather than Atar 8, because the US engine was better.

 

[zen]

Hmmmm
.....
Why not do an Israeli and jam in a J79 in place of the Atar?

But....this is also the era of Sweden's Gripen and Yugoslavia's Novi Avion.....

Although this is also in 1982 territory, still potential to swing the UK round to a Gripen-like solution to Jaguar's successor.

 

[Archibald]

I'll die on that (tropical) hill: French Guiana can be used in place of Ascension Island. Look at the distances involved. In fact it is actually closer ! Btw, just like Nimrods, french Atlantique 1 & 2 have colossal range and can patrol all the way and back.

https://www.distance.to/French-Guiana/Falkland-IslandsDistance: 3,868.96 mi (6,226.50 km)

https://www.distance.to/Ascension-Island,Ascension,SHN/Falkland-IslandsDistance: 3,957.95 mi (6,369.70 km)

This is Operation Tobus, the closest France ever got from BLACK BUCK, with its Mirage IVA. February 1986, reconnaissance over Lybia and Tchad.
https://aviateurs-e--monsite-com.tr...obus.html?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr

A few years earlier Jaguar extreme endurance had been tested.
https://www-pilotedechasse-org.tran...3663.html?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr
So, basically Jaguars and Mirage IVAs could fly up to 10 hours at 900 km/h - an average 9000 km range. Too short for BLACK BUCK raids over the Falklands flying out of French Guiana.

 

[Rule of cool]

I'll die on that (tropical) hill: French Guiana can be used in place of Ascension Island. Look at the distances involved. In fact it is actually closer ! Btw, just like Nimrods, french Atlantique 1 & 2 have colossal range and can patrol all the way and back.

https://www.distance.to/French-Guiana/Falkland-IslandsDistance: 3,868.96 mi (6,226.50 km)

https://www.distance.to/Ascension-Island,Ascension,SHN/Falkland-IslandsDistance: 3,957.95 mi (6,369.70 km)

This is Operation Tobus, the closest France ever got from BLACK BUCK, with its Mirage IVA. February 1986, reconnaissance over Lybia and Tchad.
https://aviateurs-e--monsite-com.tr...obus.html?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr

A few years earlier Jaguar extreme endurance had been tested.
https://www-pilotedechasse-org.tran...3663.html?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr
So, basically Jaguars and Mirage IVAs can fly up to 10 hours at 900 km/h - an average 9000 km range. Too short for BLACK BUCK raids over the Falklands flying out of French Guiana.

Those are huge distances and says a lot about the engine lubrication systems, especially the Mirage IVA.

RAAF Mirage III Atar 9Cs had an engine lubrication system that sprayed 'used' engine oil into the exhaust to dispose of it, which meant that at some point there wasn't enough oil left in the system to lubricate the engine therefore putting a firm limit on flight endurance. Perhaps the 9K version of the Atar, or the particular version of the 9K used by the IVA, used a different lubrication system that allowed for 11+ hour flights.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Part of Post 392.

FWIW the tables show that RN had 2 assault helicopter squadrons with Wessex HU.5s & a flight of Sea King HC.4s while the MN had one assault squadron with Super Frelons. So the difference in peacetime wasn't that big. However, the RN enlarged it's force by mobilising the training squadrons that were equipped with the HU.5 and by commissioning a scratch squadron of Sea King HAS.2s that had been converted to transport helicopters. @EwenS provided fuller details recently, either here or in another thread.

Part of Post 396.

Another 10 HAS.2A were stripped of their AS gear for use as transports and issued to a reformed 825 squadron. 8 went south on Atlantic Causeway and 2 on QE2. Another odd HAS.2A went south on Contender Bezant in charge of Naval Party 2050.

For what it's worth the 3 squadrons were formed from the training squadrons. (I think you've written as much elsewhere). This is what "The Squadrons and Aircraft and Units of the Fleet Air Arm" by Theo Ballance, Lee Howard & Ray Sturtivant says about them.

825 Squadron with Sea King HAS.2

On 3 May 1982, 825 reformed at Culdrose from a nucleus of 706 sqn for service with the Falklands Task Force in the trooping and medium lift role. Equipped with ten Sea King HAS.2s, eight of these joined SS Atlantic Causeway, and two embarked in RMS Queen Elisabeth 2. Within 30 days of forming the squadron was in action, operating ten aircraft in the field, in an unfamiliar role, 8,000 miles from home, mainly in support of 5 infantry brigade lifting troops, ammunition and supplies. Operating from Port San Carlos from late-May, four aircraft were involved in rescue operations when two LSLs were badly damaged in air attacks on 8 June and after cessation of hostilities the squadron helped in the massive transfer of PoWs to ships for return to Argentina. Returning home in July, it disbanded at Culdrose on 17 September, having flown 1,757 hours.

847 Squadron with Wessex HU.5

847 next reformed hurriedly at Yeovilton on 7 May 1982 from 771 and 772 squadrons as a Commando squadron with 21 Wessex HU.5s, these embarked within less than a week in SS Atlantic Causeway and RFA Engadien, to sail to join the task force. Originally intended to be the Garrison squadron, after the loss of SS Atlantic Converor and several 848 Sqn aircraft, most of the squadron disembarked to Port San Carlos on 2 June to operate from a Forward Air Base with 845 Sqn, transferring to Port Stanley after the Argentine surrender. In September the squadron task and remaining 11 aircraft were handed over to the returning 845 Sqn, the squadron disbanded and personnel returned to the UK.

848 Squadron with Wessex HU.5

On 17 April 1982, 848 hastily reformed at Yeovilton from elements of 707 and 772 Sqns for service in the South Atlantic. The squadron deployed in four Flights embarked in SS Atlantic Conveyor and RFAs Olna, Olwen and Regent. “D” Flight aircraft were lost when Atlantic Conveyor was sunk on 25th May, the survivors returning to the UK by air in early-June; “A” and “B” Flights returned to the UK aboard their respective ships in September; “C” Flight returned by air from Port Stanley in October having left both aircraft with 845 Sqn. 848 disbanded again at Yeovilton on 30 November.

 

[H_K]

I'll die on that (tropical) hill: French Guiana can be used in place of Ascension Island. Look at the distances involved. In fact it is actually closer !

But the distance from French Guyana is much longer at ~4,250nm if you have to stay out of Brazilian airspace and fly overwater around the tip of Brazil (as Brazil would probably stay neutral or lean towards Argentina). Anyway there probably would be no need for Blackbuck-style Mirage IVA strikes as the French carrier aircraft had better air-to-ground capabilities than Sea Harriers.

Although this distance is probably too long for round-trip flights, it might still work for 1 way deliveries of Super Etendards and Crusaders to reinforce the carrier air wing, as needed to make up for losses. This would be an ~8 hour flight (assuming the carrier can leave station for 1 day and steam north for a few hundred miles to close the distance), which is more than the Super Etendard's nominal 6hr flight limit (limited by oil capacity - 9 liters - using 1 to 1.4 liters/hr), however there was a reserve oil tank of 3.5 liters that would provide extra flight time.

Have a look at the RFA flight decks...particularly the OL Class, Tide and Fort Class, plus Engadine. Lots of other decks capable of landing the big helos and refuelling.

Dunking sonar on a Lynx is a terrible idea...endurance is not going to be good....particularly if you attempt to carry a torp and/or DC at the same time....any attempt at running a screen is going to far, far harder....dunking is best left for the big boys...

They'd have struggled massively with helicopter lift, particularly resupplying the guns with ammo. Puma could only undersling around 400lbs more than Wessex (4,000lbs). Sea King HC.4 almost doubled that to 7,500lbs....but the UK was still enormously reliant on the sole surviving CH-47 which could undersling around 25,000lbs...to be frank it would make me wonder if logistically they could have supported the move from San Carlos to Port Stanley and subsequent battles. The UK had far more cargo lift and struggled....

That's kind of my point... most of those RFA flight decks would be carrying utility Sea Kings or Wessexes.

The 20 ASW Sea Kings with dunking sonars were only allocated to the carriers AFAIK (9 on Hermes + 11 on Invincible). The equivalent French ASW screen would be provided by half a dozen Alizes and a dozen Lynx (8 on 4x ASW frigates and a pair each on the carrier and Jeanne d’Arc).

The actual helicopter lift available to the UK landing force during the 1st week was 16 helicopters (11 Sea Kings + 5 Wessex). The French equivalent would also be 16-18 helicopters (8-10 Super Frelons + 8 Pumas aboard the 3 main landing ships Jeanne d'Arc, Ouragan, Orage and the munitions ship Jules Verne).

The above doesn't count any exotic STUFT arrangements as the RN proved was possible, which brought reinforcements of 1 Chinook (Atlantic Conveyor) and 8 Sea Kings + 20 Wessex (Atlantic Causeway) by June 1st. Presumably the French might do something similar, and anyway this second wave of helicopters was less critical to the final outcome (having fewer helicopters would have delayed the land march to Port Stanley, but the landings had already been successful and the battle was won).

 

[timmymagic]

Presumably the French might do something similar, and anyway this second wave of helicopters was less critical to the final outcome (having fewer helicopters would have delayed the land march to Port Stanley, but the landings had already been successful and the battle was won).

Thats the thing....supplies to the hill battles around Stanley was an incredibly close run thing. The UK just managed to do it, but had to delay some actions to allow more time for stores to come up...

The big weight being brought forward was of course artillery ammunition. If you can't shift that you aren't taking (and holding) the likes of Kent, Longdon, Two Sisters etc. To be honest I can't see the French helo lift supporting and holding a force on Mt Kent which was the first major hill to go down, and then acted as the firebase for the British artillery.

 

[Lascaris]

FWIW and IIRC.

The French Government had to slash its public spending in the 1990s to meet the Euro's convergence criteria and PAN.2 was a victim of said public spending cuts. (PAN.1 became CdG).

The only countries that met the conversion criteria were the UK and Germany, except that HMG had opted out from joining the Euro.

My guess is that it's still cancelled. That is unless we can turn Les Trente Glorieuses of OTL into Les Cinquante or Soixante Glorieuses ITTL.

Or the Germans are strogarmed a bit to agree to somewhat laxer criteria.

 

[H_K]

To be honest I can't see the French helo lift supporting and holding a force on Mt Kent

Why so? Initial lift would be the same, with slightly better helicopters (Super Frelon > Sea King, Puma > Wessex).

After week 1, you’re looking at what can be brought aboard STUFT ships. Replace Atlantic Conveyor and Atlantic Causeway with Atlantic Cognac and Atlantic Champagne (no joke - the 2 Cunard ships had French twins!) and job done.

There would be no Chinook sure, but French artillery was 120mm mortars which easily fit inside a Puma (including gun crew and some rounds). The 120mm mortar ammo was also slightly lighter than British 105mm rounds.

 

[timmymagic]

Why so? Initial lift would be the same, with slightly better helicopters (Super Frelon > Sea King, Puma > Wessex).

After week 1, you’re looking at what can be brought aboard STUFT ships. Replace Atlantic Conveyor and Atlantic Causeway with Atlantic Cognac and Atlantic Champagne (no joke - the 2 Cunard ships had French twins!) and job done.

There would be no Chinook sure, but French artillery was 120mm mortars which easily fit inside a Puma (including gun crew and some rounds). The 120mm mortar ammo was also slightly lighter than British 105mm rounds.

Measure the distance from the reverse slope of Mount Kent....to Mount Harriet, Mount Longdon and Two Sisters....

You'll notice there is a problem....range.

You can't sight your mortars closer either...because you'll be observed and be in range of 155mm and Argentine 105....

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Or the Germans are strogarmed a bit to agree to somewhat laxer criteria.

That wasn't necessary.

If I remember correctly nearly everyone who wanted to join the Euro was allowed to join regardless of whether they met the convergence criteria or not.

Therefore, France could have had its cake and eaten it. That is, no massive spending cuts and still been allowed to join the Euro.

After all, the Euro wouldn't have worked without France or Germany being in it. They were the EU's two largest and most important members, who effectively run the place.

EDIT: And if I've also remembered correctly, the convergence criteria were an afterthought, so don't have them ITTL.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Would the consequences of this see the second CdG class carrier?

I want another consequence to be that it was built with a PA.58 size hull instead of a Clemenceau size hull.

I think @Archibald said it was the OTL size for political reasons. That is it was built at DCN Brest for political reasons and that it didn't have a slipway/building dock that could build anything larger than the OTL CdG. However, he said that there were other French shipyards that could have built larger ships. One of them was Chantiers de l'Atlantique, in Saint-Nazaire, which built SS France.

 

[H_K]

Measure the distance from the reverse slope of Mount Kent....to Mount Harriet, Mount Longdon and Two Sisters....

You'll notice there is a problem....range.

You can't sight your mortars closer either...because you'll be observed and be in range of 155mm and Argentine 105....

I'm not sure I understand your point. 120mm mortars on Mt Kent and Mt Challenger would have been able to support attacks on all those Argentinian strongpoints, while staying out of range of Argentina's 105mm pack howitzers. No different from the British 105mm field guns. Mt Harriet and Two Sisters were within the 8km range of standard 120mm rounds, and , and Mt Longdon and Mt Tumbledown were within the 13km range of rocket assisted rounds.

All were vulnerable (in theory) to Argentina's 155mm guns on Sapper Hill, but luckily there were only 2 guns, with limited ammunition. So the 155s wouldn't have stopped 120mm mortars from operating from Mt Kent & Mt Challenger anymore than they failed to stop British 105s from operating from the same locations.

 

[timmymagic]

I'm not sure I understand your point. 120mm mortars on Mt Kent and Mt Challenger would have been able to support attacks on all those Argentinian strongpoints, while staying out of range of Argentina's 105mm pack howitzers. No different from the British 105mm field guns. Mt Harriet and Two Sisters were within the 8km range of standard 120mm rounds, and , and Mt Longdon and Mt Tumbledown were within the 13km range of rocket assisted rounds.

All were vulnerable (in theory) to Argentina's 155mm guns on Sapper Hill, but luckily there were only 2 guns, with limited ammunition. So the 155s wouldn't have stopped 120mm mortars from operating from Mt Kent & Mt Challenger anymore than they failed to stop British 105s from operating from the same locations.

I'm not sure where you're measuring the distance from but you categorically do not have the range...

120mm rocket assisted rounds were not available in 1982 either...

 

[H_K]

I'm not sure where you're measuring the distance from but you categorically do not have the range...

120mm rocket assisted rounds were not available in 1982 either...

120mm rocket assisted rounds with 13km range entered service in the 1970s (“PRPA - Projectile Rayé à Propulsion Additionnelle”).

I get the following distances. The first 2 mountains are within range of standard 120mm rounds, the other 2 within range of PRPA rocket assisted rounds.

Mt Kent / Mt Challenger to
-> Two Sisters 6.8km
-> Mt Harriet 8km / 6.5km
-> Mt Longdon 9.2km / 9.6km
-> Mt Tumbledown 11.3km / 10.8km

Finally there was also the option of “artillery raids” - a tactical concept created by French airborne artillery units (35e Parachute Artillery Regiment) to make best use of the 120mm’s unique air transportability. This would involve a pair of Pumas each carrying a mortar (600kg), 6 man mortar crew, and enough rounds for a few minutes fire mission. The mortars and crews would be dropped off in a forward area, would plaster the target, then reimbark within a few minutes before enemy counter battery fire had a chance to respond. (Potential memories of how the same unit’s light field guns in fixed positions had been plastered by heavier Vietnamese counter battery fire at Dien Bien Phu?)

 

[Archibald]

Not very familiar with the Armée de Terre tactics but they had fought post-colonial wars since 1968, starting in Chad. Along the way a lot of innovative tactics were pioneered, for an important reason. With the Algerian morasse still fresh in minds, France post-colonial fights, 1968-1977 were run shoestring and low-profile. Only with Operation Lamentin in 1977 did the efforts went up again. Lebanon 1982 was another step upward, followed by Chad (again) and Lybia, which peaked in 1986-87. After that: into GW1 and Yugoslavia horror.

Michel Goya is a well respected french military analyst and he got a bunch of blog posts about France forgotten Françafrique wars, starting in 1968 (on-line translation from french to english).

https://lavoiedelepee-blogspot-com....tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc
https://lavoiedelepee-blogspot-com....tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc