Archibald

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Yes that one. Also known as laughing gas. And H2O2 is bleach for hair. And breathing pure oxygen can drive people crazy !

Have fun with rocket oxidizers !
 
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Zoo Tycoon

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I have a question concerning the uncompleted SR-177 prototypes, after that fool Duncan Sandys cancelled them in his idiotic 1957 defence white-paper what happened to them? I ask because after the Hawker P.1121 was cancelled the nearly structurally complete prototype wasn't scrapped it was stuck in a warehouse and ended up at RAF Cosford, now did something similar happen to the SR-177 prototypes or were they ignominiously scrapped?

A chap I worked with in the early nineties was in the Saunders Roe flight test department which at time was focused on the SR53. He said that they were in the process of forming a team to support SR177 flight testing just about the time of cancellation, and he escaped redundancy because the SR53 project was incomplete. He remembered the SR177 assembly shop remained complete, but doors closed, almost untouched, lights out for a year or so. At one point there was oversea’s interest (Japan??) in buying the whole project, so the prototype at the most assembly complete standard, had its components taken out of jig and arranged on trestles to represent the complete airframe. He was involved in the setting up of this display but not the visit itself so didn’t know who the client was. After between a year and 18 months a scrap firm came in and gas axed the lot;- airframes/jig/part store. Just after this he lost his job and so moved to Handley Page.

I didn’t ask if there were any attempts to pass bits to Cranfield as per 1121 and 545, but remember the secrecy attached to these projects were considered a liability;- best chopped up and out of sight was the order of the day.

HTP wasn’t very nice stuff to handle, despite being under team orders to not say anything to bad to the ministry, they treated it with upmost respect. The HTP they were working with was in the range of 70-80% and didn’t know the concentration until it arrived on site. The engine had to be tuned (I.e physically adjusted) based what turned up. At the time, the Blue Steel development team got the priority pick of the concentration. At one point they wanted to do some top end performance trials which needed 80%+ and waited weeks/months for some suitable HTP to arrive.
 
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zen

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Ooooo that's interesting!!!!!

But if photos were taken, I guess they've not surfaced yet.
 

LowObservable

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Peroxide has a terrible reputation (Me 163, Kursk) but Sweden still uses it in all their heavy torpedoes. It's also interesting that the RN doesn't seem to have been afraid of it, even after using it in two Explorer-class subs. A quick look around suggests that better and more stable formulations are available today. H2O2/Kerosene has a decent Isp for a non-cryo fuel.
 

Archibald

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I've red a lot about that H2O2 stuff - and the record is definitively mixed and controversial.
Some points
- H2O2 needs to be 98% pure to get max specific impulse out of it (324 seconds is feasible)
- 85% or 90% instantly degrades the specific impulse to 280-290 seconds - although it improves handling and safety
- the purer the H2O2, the worst it reacts to impurities, including water vapor from the atmosphere
- The NF-104A (three built and flown for 8 years 1963-71) is typical of H2O2 mixed record
- It did not killed any pilot yet at some point in the late 1960's was a hangar queen because that H2O2 in the rocket created many structural issues
- H2O2 from 1945 to 1980 had some purity issues that led to severe accidents
- Yet from the moment it became part of hybrid rockets (besides solid fuel: AMROC, 1985) and then of Andrew Beal BA-2 project (1997), new manufacturing processes with more purity vastly improved H2O2 handling and safety

I have a whole bunch of documents on my HD if anybody is interested.

H2O2 was once my favorite "begnin" oxider for suborbital refueling rocketplanes; but since then I've learned about NYTROX which is a blend of N2O and LOX, lowering their freezings points (-183°C for LOX, -88°C for N2O). Nytrox could get a gentler -50°C without losing too much specific impulse.

But fact is that finding a non-deep-cryogenic, non-toxic, non-unstable oxidizer for rocketplanes is next to impossible. N2O sucks, H2O2 explodes, LOX is too cold, N2O4 is a corrosive and toxic b*tch of a substance. And with the aforementioned four, 90% of potential rocket oxidizers have been mentionned.
That list perfectly summarize the issue.
Ammonium dinitramide
Ammonium nitrate
Ammonium perchlorate

Chlorine pentafluoride
Chlorine trifluoride

Dinitrogen tetroxide (N2O4: storable hypergolic Ariane / Proton / Titan / Long March oxidizer)

Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2)

Liquid oxygen (LOX)

Mixed oxides of nitrogen

Nitronium perchlorate
Nitrous oxide (N2O)

Oxygen difluoride

Perchloryl fluoride

Red fuming nitric acid

T-Stoff
Tetrafluorohydrazine
Tetranitromethane
Trinitramide

What is not storable / hypergolic (N2O4 and others) is horrible and murderous stuff (fluorine & "a good pair of running shoes" in the words of John Ignition Clark) .

And once all the nasty substances are removed, all that's left are the trio LOX (deep cryogen) H2O2 (unstable explosive bastard) and N2O (suck at performance, mild-cryogen, and killed three Virgin / Rutan / Scaled employees in July 2007).

That's why nytrox is interesting: it very much tries to blend LOX & N2O into a more begnin substance to compete with H2O2 as "alternative oxidizer to sacrosanct LOX".
 
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GUNDAM123dx

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Fully developed version of SR.53/SR.177:
Air Launch Maximum Ceiling: 157,700 metres
Maximum Speed: 5,852 kph / Mach 5.5 @ 25,400 metres
 

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Archibald

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Fully developed version of SR.53/SR.177:
Air Launch Maximum Ceiling: 157,700 metres
Maximum Speed: 5,852 kph / Mach 5.5 @ 25,400 metres

But the heat barrier may disagree...

In contrast with that, the altitude might be a touch more realistic, although 100 miles is quite enormous - moar than the X-15 !
 
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Zoo Tycoon

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Featuring Dick Stratton - Wonderful chap;- I had a hosted lunch (ie a group of us young aero engineers) with him in the early/mid eighties, unfortunately before I knew he was Chief Engineer on the 53/177. Form memory he mainly talked about his time on the Princess;- “one day I was twenty eight year old, drawing up a section of the flying controls and my boss asked;- Dick are you sure they’ll work ? So I replied that I had absolute confidence, to which he replied;- that’s good because we want someone like you on the first flight……. And that’s how I became the Princesse’s ‘chief stoker’ on its maiden flight a year or so later”
 
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