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Saunders Roe P.177 / SR.177

blackkite

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Thanks a lot. Beautiful model.
I can see various air intake shapes. Which is the final shape?
 

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zen

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That inlet is interesting and possibly a source of problems considering how short the duct is to the face of the engine.
 

Hobbes

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I've never seen the second inlet shape before. The original intake had a movable lip which had to be in the forward position to allow the nose gear to deploy, IIRC. The second shape would remove that requirement.
 

blackkite

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zen

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A little necromancy....

But that inlet makes me wonder.....

It that just the model lacking the inlet component and this is just how it attaches to the model?

Or is that a genuine 2d wedge type as on F107, XB70 etc....?
Because if so, it surely storing up trouble considering the duct shape and it's shortness to the engine face.
 

GTX

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A different view of the mockup previously shown:

 

Volkodav

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Some of the earlier posts speculated that the SR 177 would possibly have been able to operate from a modernised Colossus or Majestic light fleet carrier. If this was the case then the type continuing development through to deployment may have changed the opinion that the light fleet carriers would need to be replaced as they were too small for the incoming designs, i.e. Sea Vixen and Scimitar. SR 177 could have been a very interesting alternative allowing said ships to potentially serve into the 80s.
 

uk 75

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Taken at the De havilland Aviation Heritage Museum, suspended near a Gyron engine adjacent to the gift shop.
This model is a modern one probably made in the Philippines like some in my collection..You can tell by the squadron marking, 60s livery and the black lining. It may well be available from the Gift Shop..
If you compare it with the original period model shoen on itd stand you will see what I mean.
 

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zen

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Some of the earlier posts speculated that the SR 177 would possibly have been able to operate from a modernised Colossus or Majestic light fleet carrier. If this was the case then the type continuing development through to deployment may have changed the opinion that the light fleet carriers would need to be replaced as they were too small for the incoming designs, i.e. Sea Vixen and Scimitar. SR 177 could have been a very interesting alternative allowing said ships to potentially serve into the 80s.
There was somewhere on this site s pdf concerning wind tunnel tests of the Saro F.177 design examining it's low speed characteristics and schemes for reducing it's TO&L speeds.
Essentially it's speeds are with blow over the wing, not far off the Scimitar. But obviously at lower weights.
The result is a modified Colossus or Majestic might operate it safely.
But it all comes down to those modifications.
Where it would really tell is on a Centaur.
Obviously a wingfold would help.
 

Volkodav

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Some of the earlier posts speculated that the SR 177 would possibly have been able to operate from a modernised Colossus or Majestic light fleet carrier. If this was the case then the type continuing development through to deployment may have changed the opinion that the light fleet carriers would need to be replaced as they were too small for the incoming designs, i.e. Sea Vixen and Scimitar. SR 177 could have been a very interesting alternative allowing said ships to potentially serve into the 80s.
There was somewhere on this site s pdf concerning wind tunnel tests of the Saro F.177 design examining it's low speed characteristics and schemes for reducing it's TO&L speeds.
Essentially it's speeds are with blow over the wing, not far off the Scimitar. But obviously at lower weights.
The result is a modified Colossus or Majestic might operate it safely.
But it all comes down to those modifications.
Where it would really tell is on a Centaur.
Obviously a wingfold would help.
A fully developed SR177 could have made light carriers viable for much longer, especially if a suitable complementary carrier capable MPA was developed as well, one with a reasonable secondary anti ship or even strike capability.
 

Hood

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I may be mis-remembering and would have to dig-out Friedman to confirm, but I think Hermes was planned for P.177 and would have received HTP storage.
 

zen

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Certainly Eagle and Victorious had planned airwings with F.177s in place of Scimitars. So I wouldn't be surprised if there was something similar for Hermes.
It also explains why the Scimitar was being used as the metric for the Trade Protection Carrier 'Argument' between DNC and DAW. As if you can operate Scimitar, you can operate F.177.
 

starviking

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I've never really seen the appeal of SR.177 myself. Afterburning turbojets are less complicated in use, in maintenance and supply train (single engine, not two, single fuel type) and seem a better solution. Other features of the design - T tail - not great - also its pretty fat looking (pre-area-rule, I assume) and like the YF-102 I have trouble seeing it exceed Mach 1, let alone 2. And don't even start on the canopy design.

A true blast from the past here, apologies Overscan.

Looking at SR177 plan views, and comparing them to EE Lightning, there firstly does not seem to be any appreciable area ruling on the Lightning. Secondly, the SR177 does appear to have a slightly curved notch in the fuselage where the wing joins - but nothing on the scale of the F-102.

Now maybe I’m wrong on the Lightning, perhaps there is some subtle area ruling, or maybe the configuration is not as susceptible to transonic drag - but from an admittedly brief look at things, if nothing precludes the Lightning from going supersonic, can we say the 177 cannot?
 

JohnR

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I've never noticed the different air intake before, I've always seen it with the single intake with the 'shock cone', not the divided one show on the models. Was this an actual development or was it a bit of poetic license by the model maker.

Also images of the naval version with a carrier always show a light fleet carrier.

As a matter of interest, how was it planned to deploy the RAF version. I seem to recall; from a dark and dusty corner of my memory, that it was intended for them to take of from from a 'zero length' launcher, much like the experiments undertaken in the US with Super Sabres and Starfighter.
 

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