Russian 3M22 Tsirkon Hypersonic Missile

LMFS

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949 and 971 are Zircon capable? News to me.
949AM will indeed be, there was talk that the 971 would be capable too. The 650 mm tubes are capable for Kalibr, so it is not so far fetched to see them deploying the Tsirkon

Also Shortest Notice is like the exact opposite of how they have been brought back, indeed the stagnation/decrease in number of platforms is why keeping an edge in AShMs is critical for RuNavy.
That has been the case for a long time, but in the last few years we have seen a substantial acceleration of the the pace of repair and modernizations, until 2023 the fleet will receive many subs that had been waiting for a long time.

Whether the coincidence in time of Tsirkon tests and the return of these old subs is due to them being able to carry it or just in order to enable the true carriers to perform their mission is not known, but in any case the resurgence of these types in the fleet and the impending commissioning of the Tsirkon seem closely correlated.

Some links about those two topics:

https://tass.ru/opinions/10542211
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10374675
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/10456769

BTW, range of Tsirkon against land targets has been stated as 1500 km by "sources" talking to TASS. For reference:

Ranges.JPG
 

Josh_TN

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949 and 971 are Zircon capable? News to me.

I believe the Oscars (edit: two are being updated to 949AM currently) are to be refitted to accept the missile, though I don’t think it has been done yet. I can’t imagine where an Akula class would fit the weapon however.

Edit: someone noted the 650mm tubes could fit the weapon. It’s possible I guess. Do we have any reliable weights or dimensions for Zircon?
 
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stealthflanker

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I would assume the dimension of Zircon to be about 70 cm or as big as Oniks. With similar length of 9-10 meters.

While Kalibr is something in 51 cm.

Fitting Zircon in 971's torpedo tube seems unlikely. Only VLS or upgraded SM-225 Launcher of 949 would have the dimension to carry it.
 

sferrin

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The notion of 24/48 nuclear-armed Zircons sitting off the coast of Virginia (in a SSGN) does not exactly warm one's heart.
I don't think they need to be nuclear tipped, those subs will serve as immediate, surgical retaliatory means of adjustable intensity, in case critical red lines are crossed, and so they plug gaps in the escalation balance between powers. That is the reason why not only the 885 are being commissioned as fast as possible, but also the 949 and the 971 are being returned to service on shortest notice and enabled to launch Tsirkons too, so that US can never be sure to be tracking all the possible carriers, even if they really devote a lot of resources to the task, like it seems they will be doing with more Arleigh Burke units being slated for ASW in the North Atlantic from now onwards.

Russia was clearly not amused about mk41 launchers being stationed few minutes flight away from the country's main cities and about many other moves by the West, and the statements by top officials about "taking the necessary steps in response" need to be put in perspective, considering developments like the ones we see now. A gun pressed against Russia's head meant a symmetrical measure needed to be taken rather sooner than later.

It may feel uncomfortable, but in the last 70+ years of relative peace between superpowers, outright fear of being destroyed was probably more important than just good will, so I think good old deterrence is, all considered, a good thing for us all. And these weapons allow to block escalation well before nuclear confrontation starts, which is even better.
Those that could launch a decapitating strike though are sometimes seen as DEstabilizing. Pershing 2 for instance, was seen as such. A nuclear armed Zircon could be seen as such. A nuke that could be on target (and accurately) in single-digit minutes leaves no time for reaction.
 

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I would assume the dimension of Zircon to be about 70 cm or as big as Oniks. With similar length of 9-10 meters.

While Kalibr is something in 51 cm.

Fitting Zircon in 971's torpedo tube seems unlikely. Only VLS or upgraded SM-225 Launcher of 949 would have the dimension to carry it.
Onix is 720 mm diameter, Kalibr is 650 and the PL version can be launched from the corresponding torpedo tubes in the 971. Both have essentially the same size, Kalibr being just a bit thinner and roughly the same length. Since we don't know what the diameter of Tsirkon is, we have hints in one direction or another, but no firm knowledge
 

sferrin

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I would assume the dimension of Zircon to be about 70 cm or as big as Oniks. With similar length of 9-10 meters.

While Kalibr is something in 51 cm.

Fitting Zircon in 971's torpedo tube seems unlikely. Only VLS or upgraded SM-225 Launcher of 949 would have the dimension to carry it.
I wonder how many they could stuff in each Granit tube on Oscars. Three?
 

TR1

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I would assume the dimension of Zircon to be about 70 cm or as big as Oniks. With similar length of 9-10 meters.

While Kalibr is something in 51 cm.

Fitting Zircon in 971's torpedo tube seems unlikely. Only VLS or upgraded SM-225 Launcher of 949 would have the dimension to carry it.
I wonder how many they could stuff in each Granit tube on Oscars. Three?
949AM is supposed to replace each Granit tube with 3 tubes for Kalibr/Onix/friends.
 

Trident

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I expect they'd rip out the Granit tubes and fit new ones (relatively straightforward as they're under separate hatches outside the pressure hull), but yes, in that case 3:1 seems a reasonable guess. 2x3 inclined Zircon/Kalibr launchers in place of every Granit pair.
 

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I would assume the dimension of Zircon to be about 70 cm or as big as Oniks. With similar length of 9-10 meters.

While Kalibr is something in 51 cm.

Fitting Zircon in 971's torpedo tube seems unlikely. Only VLS or upgraded SM-225 Launcher of 949 would have the dimension to carry it.
Onix is 720 mm diameter, Kalibr is 650 and the PL version can be launched from the corresponding torpedo tubes in the 971. Both have essentially the same size, Kalibr being just a bit thinner and roughly the same length. Since we don't know what the diameter of Tsirkon is, we have hints in one direction or another, but no firm knowledge
Kalibr is most certainly not 650mm in diameter otherwise no Kilo could launch it, And you also haven't considered that Zircon might not be able to launch from a horizontal launch position like a torpedo tube even if it could fit. Angled launchers on 949AM maybe but it was intended for Kalibr/Onyx from what is understood with documentation and patents.
 

stealthflanker

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I wonder how many they could stuff in each Granit tube on Oscars. Three?

Yeah 3. this is the layout of the SM-315 launcher. so each granit "cans" got three smaller launchers for Oniks. Bring the total payload to 72 missiles.

cli0z9JWFe.jpg




I would assume the dimension of Zircon to be about 70 cm or as big as Oniks. With similar length of 9-10 meters.

While Kalibr is something in 51 cm.

Fitting Zircon in 971's torpedo tube seems unlikely. Only VLS or upgraded SM-225 Launcher of 949 would have the dimension to carry it.
Onix is 720 mm diameter, Kalibr is 650 and the PL version can be launched from the corresponding torpedo tubes in the 971. Both have essentially the same size, Kalibr being just a bit thinner and roughly the same length. Since we don't know what the diameter of Tsirkon is, we have hints in one direction or another, but no firm knowledge

How Kalibr is 650mm ? When it can be launched by P-636 which only have 533mm tubes ? Or you mean it's the length.
 

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Has Russia mentioned how Zircon is powered? It occurs to me that it would need one hell of a booster to be a pure scramjet. Is it possible it’s just a very fast ramjet or some kind of ramjet/scramjet hybrid? As someone noted in another thread the ASALM prototype was able to break Mach 6 with just a ramjet.
 

LMFS

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Has Russia mentioned how Zircon is powered? It occurs to me that it would need one hell of a booster to be a pure scramjet. Is it possible it’s just a very fast ramjet or some kind of ramjet/scramjet hybrid? As someone noted in another thread the ASALM prototype was able to break Mach 6 with just a ramjet.
Mach 9 probably demands a fully functional scramjet, but we don't know at what speed it starts operating, or whether it can work as a ramjet too.
 

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As someone noted in another thread the ASALM prototype was able to break Mach 6 with just a ramjet.

And destroyed itself in the process. Bit like saying WWII prop fighters could break 900km/h... they could (in a dive), but 900km/h generally broke them, too!
 

bobbymike

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Has Russia mentioned how Zircon is powered? It occurs to me that it would need one hell of a booster to be a pure scramjet. Is it possible it’s just a very fast ramjet or some kind of ramjet/scramjet hybrid? As someone noted in another thread the ASALM prototype was able to break Mach 6 with just a ramjet.
Mach 9 probably demands a fully functional scramjet, but we don't know at what speed it starts operating, or whether it can work as a ramjet too.
Do we have western defense sources who have definitively said “this weapon goes M9?”
 

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didn't we have a test of Zircon already? so we can just take: distance/time = average speed
 

Saber

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Has Russia mentioned how Zircon is powered? It occurs to me that it would need one hell of a booster to be a pure scramjet. Is it possible it’s just a very fast ramjet or some kind of ramjet/scramjet hybrid? As someone noted in another thread the ASALM prototype was able to break Mach 6 with just a ramjet.
Mach 9 probably demands a fully functional scramjet, but we don't know at what speed it starts operating, or whether it can work as a ramjet too.
Do we have western defense sources who have definitively said “this weapon goes M9?”
Because Russian officials who have stated so know worse or are wrong about their own missile?
 

DWG

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Do we have western defense sources who have definitively said “this weapon goes M9?”
Because Russian officials who have stated so know worse or are wrong about their own missile?
Maskirovka, it's a Russian thing.

(The West does it too, of course, but Russian pronouncements are treated with a certain degree of skepticism).
 

DWG

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In talking about Tsirkon potentially going into the Project 949AM refits, we do need to consider that this is a refit approved in February 2012 and contracted for in April 2013 with work started in 2014 (or 2013?). Which means the refits had their requirements finalised and were started very early in the Tsirkon testing cycle. So it's possible the combat system and the missile launch system may not have been contracted to be Tsirkon capable. That's probably fairly straightforward to fix if so, but we don't know it's actually been done.

If it has been done, it will need a separate test launch sequence, given the tests from Severodinsk were from its VLS rather than the inclined SM-315 launchers in the Project 949AMs.
 

bobbymike

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Has Russia mentioned how Zircon is powered? It occurs to me that it would need one hell of a booster to be a pure scramjet. Is it possible it’s just a very fast ramjet or some kind of ramjet/scramjet hybrid? As someone noted in another thread the ASALM prototype was able to break Mach 6 with just a ramjet.
Mach 9 probably demands a fully functional scramjet, but we don't know at what speed it starts operating, or whether it can work as a ramjet too.
Do we have western defense sources who have definitively said “this weapon goes M9?”
Because Russian officials who have stated so know worse or are wrong about their own missile?
Why so sensitive? Just asking for additional sources. I don’t take any single countries pronouncements with 100% faith.
 

DWG

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The notion of 24/48 nuclear-armed Zircons sitting off the coast of Virginia (in a SSGN) does not exactly warm one's heart.
I don't think they need to be nuclear tipped

However the West will need to assume they are. The calculus of deterrence mean the sums add up differently depending which side of the warhead you're on.
 

muttly

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Can these things be shoot down? Especially if they are fired in groups.
 

LMFS

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However the West will need to assume they are. The calculus of deterrence mean the sums add up differently depending which side of the warhead you're on.
Hopefully they do just that and factor in that possibility in their calculations and plans of further "containment" of Russia. Nevertheless, high precision hypersonic weapons like this can be decapitating even in conventional versions, that was what the Prompt Global Strike was aiming at in the end. Only problem with that concept was that no one in US leadership planed to end up at the wrong end of such a weapon I guess...

Why so sensitive? Just asking for additional sources. I don’t take any single countries pronouncements with 100% faith.
By the way US is scrambling to develop hypersonic weapons you can be darn sure they take the Russian statements seriously. Other than that, everything is or can be misinformation, from any side.
 

DWG

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However the West will need to assume they are. The calculus of deterrence mean the sums add up differently depending which side of the warhead you're on.
Hopefully they do just that
Threatening people with nuclear weapons really doesn't incline them to consider your case leniently.
 

LMFS

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Threatening people with nuclear weapons really doesn't incline them to consider your case leniently.
Well, it seems they don't need "leniency", when they can have actual deterrence
 

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low flying hypersonic plasma covered nuclear warhead missiles sound like a pain. But what rather bothers me is nuklon or burevestnik which might give them ideas to create nuclear weapons that might have engines based off of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_core_reactor_rocket or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fission-fragment_rocket or some new method because they are also creating material that goes above 4000 celsius which they themselves have problems measuring. Currently created new closed circuit engines that make rocket engines burn from 300 seconds to 3000 seconds without increasing dimensions. Apparently I posyed a source 10-15 minutes ago of the new missile name for the Su-57 which can can guess the size, etc, etc. Based on the mysterious black missile the mig-31 carried not giving a name AFAIK. The more serious weapons are the ones that are not disclosed. I rather find public domain information pointless because it does not measure how advanced one country is from another such as the U.S. could have super advanced weapons they do not want to post either publically. I dont even know where Roscosmos or Space X stand in methane engine technology based on their proposals. Lets just say I think militarily the U.S. and Russia are not that heated as they were in the cold war and no one wants to die.
 

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Say the missile was launched 20 miles away from our coast underwater, flying in our mainland but gets intercepted at 40kms above our heads, with a nuclear detonation going off, would we get any sickness or some adverse health conditions like winds blowing the nuclear fallout or anything?

How long does a nuclear blackout occur with high to low frequencies? Would there be major blind spots for ballistic missile defense where more missiles take advantage to where the detonation occured to sneak more missiles in? Just some average questions I will layout here.
 
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Suetham

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Has Russia mentioned how Zircon is powered? It occurs to me that it would need one hell of a booster to be a pure scramjet. Is it possible it’s just a very fast ramjet or some kind of ramjet/scramjet hybrid? As someone noted in another thread the ASALM prototype was able to break Mach 6 with just a ramjet.
Mach 9 probably demands a fully functional scramjet, but we don't know at what speed it starts operating, or whether it can work as a ramjet too.
Do we have western defense sources who have definitively said “this weapon goes M9?”

I don't think so. The only source i've seen is Russian claiming that the Tsirkon achieves +Mach 8 speed.
 

Josh_TN

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A big question I’d have would be whether that’s the constant speed of the weapon or the top speed used for the terminal part of the flight. The latter might include the dive to the target, which probably involves additional acceleration.
 

Suetham

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A big question I’d have would be whether that’s the constant speed of the weapon or the top speed used for the terminal part of the flight. The latter might include the dive to the target, which probably involves additional acceleration.
The hypersonic speed is triggered as soon as the booster stage is released and the scramjet starts working to achieve those speeds. I believe the Russians know that the determining factor of Tsirkon is not its description of avoiding detection by enemy systems, but its speed. Hypersonic speed means it must fly relatively high, which means it must be able to be detected at long range, but the high speed will reduce the available reaction time and, of course, the maneuverability would make it a desperately difficult target to be engaged.

Traveling at high altitudes is not a problem because the very high speed means that although the air may be cooler and thinner, the volume of air collected is huge simply because of the flight speed, so it's okay to use a scramjet engine. In reality, the scramjet engine works best at high altitude, so staying at high altitude and diving to land on the target can be a useful concept. Tsirkon will fly at mach 8 only at high altitudes. At high altitudes the air is less dense compared to lower altitudes. The heat accumulated due to friction with the air will be less at these higher altitudes, at which altitude the scramjet will work best, so the Zircon would hardly perform any flight course action at low altitude.

Plasma is created around mach 6 and becomes increasingly detrimental to radio communications thereafter. On mach 8, signals such as GPS reception will be seriously affected.

As for temperature, hypersonic velocities generally generate boundary-layer temperatures of 1000°C or more, enough temperature to saturate the IR sensors, that in itself is not a problem, the Tsirkon probably at terminal velocity, will have speeds at mach 6, SAM missiles like the Russian 48N6 has 6.2 mach speed and even features a semi-active nose radar.

Going back to the IR sensors issue, behind a nose blinded by the plasma, the Tsirkon missile may have forward-facing side IR sensors that it might be able to look even under the plasma. In addition, a normal old technology cooled thermal imager has its elements cooled with liquid nitrogen, cooling the surface of the missile. To overcome the problem of generated heat, Tsirkon can easily have ablative materials near the hot spots (nose) and even pump its liquid fuel through the surface of the skin where heating occurs to prepare the fuel and cool the surface.

Regarding the search for the target, it all comes down to how much the target moves and how accurately the target is located in the first place, it is worth noting that the missile flying at mach 6, will reach the target in less than 7 minutes at 500 km from range, compared to the target ship, it will travel a much shorter distance in any direction, leaving a much smaller target area for the missile to search for the target. Just noting that most ballistic targets when performing the maneuver reduces speed, but for Tsirkon which is a powered missile, then it won't lose as much speed during turns, and can regain lost speed, in the matter facing Tsirkon, slow down speeds before hitting targets is due to target acquisition, last stage tracking, with the scramjet engine burning all the time means more energy and the ability to maneuver without necessarily losing speed.
 

tequilashooter

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The hypersonic speed is triggered as soon as the booster stage is released and the scramjet starts working to achieve those speeds. I believe the Russians know that the determining factor of Tsirkon is not its description of avoiding detection by enemy systems, but its speed. Hypersonic speed means it must fly relatively high, which means it must be able to be detected at long range, but the high speed will reduce the available reaction time and, of course, the maneuverability would make it a desperately difficult target to be engaged.

Traveling at high altitudes is not a problem because the very high speed means that although the air may be cooler and thinner, the volume of air collected is huge simply because of the flight speed, so it's okay to use a scramjet engine. In reality, the scramjet engine works best at high altitude, so staying at high altitude and diving to land on the target can be a useful concept. Tsirkon will fly at mach 8 only at high altitudes. At high altitudes the air is less dense compared to lower altitudes. The heat accumulated due to friction with the air will be less at these higher altitudes, at which altitude the scramjet will work best, so the Zircon would hardly perform any flight course action at low altitude.

Plasma is created around mach 6 and becomes increasingly detrimental to radio communications thereafter. On mach 8, signals such as GPS reception will be seriously affected.

As for temperature, hypersonic velocities generally generate boundary-layer temperatures of 1000°C or more, enough temperature to saturate the IR sensors, that in itself is not a problem, the Tsirkon probably at terminal velocity, will have speeds at mach 6, SAM missiles like the Russian 48N6 has 6.2 mach speed and even features a semi-active nose radar.

Going back to the IR sensors issue, behind a nose blinded by the plasma, the Tsirkon missile may have forward-facing side IR sensors that it might be able to look even under the plasma. In addition, a normal old technology cooled thermal imager has its elements cooled with liquid nitrogen, cooling the surface of the missile. To overcome the problem of generated heat, Tsirkon can easily have ablative materials near the hot spots (nose) and even pump its liquid fuel through the surface of the skin where heating occurs to prepare the fuel and cool the surface.

Regarding the search for the target, it all comes down to how much the target moves and how accurately the target is located in the first place, it is worth noting that the missile flying at mach 6, will reach the target in less than 7 minutes at 500 km from range, compared to the target ship, it will travel a much shorter distance in any direction, leaving a much smaller target area for the missile to search for the target. Just noting that most ballistic targets when performing the maneuver reduces speed, but for Tsirkon which is a powered missile, then it won't lose as much speed during turns, and can regain lost speed, in the matter facing Tsirkon, slow down speeds before hitting targets is due to target acquisition, last stage tracking, with the scramjet engine burning all the time means more energy and the ability to maneuver without necessarily losing speed.
This was probably already beaten to death by other two users which I dont know if you came across yet but the agreement I can see on both sides is that speed and based on what altitudes are cruised at(no idea how long zircon is staying in 40kms altitude throughout its flight) plasma forms which effects radio frequencies based on their wavelengths. -10 or -15 decibels or whatever it was, was the effects of dropping spheres from space according to a NASA research paper. But what we or what I dont know is would scramjets have more favorable plasma conditions because I take it that spheres have a creeping wave return while I think scramjets dont suffer from such effects from radars. And the obvious no shit example of scramjets besides being hypersonic is the advantage of lower altitudes over ballistic missiles.

Also the communcation part with the missile was already beaten to death here as well. https://www.technologyreview.com/20...black-out-problem-for-re-entering-spacecraft/ My problem with these missiles is a Yasen-M(also how stealth are they from SONAR arrays placed on coasts) getting close to our coast and launching an entire barage of them. it will take awhile to get infrared satellites or ground radars to cue the attack is coming to respond effectively with interception methods in which I think it is already too late when a nuclear warhead is flying low above our heads and if detonation occurs all electronics in close proximity are screwed and when it occurs it will cause major radar blind spots depending how fast the frequencies disapate where another barrage of missiles pass through the radar blind spots masking themselves from radars further away targetting them creating a domino effect entering the mainland deeper and deeper assuming they are all getting intercepted while the detonations occur until we are stone age and not browsing secretprojects anymore.

What both sides are doing is beyond anyone's grasp we have one country that still makes breakthroughs from nuclear powered spacecrafts and missiles(potential of growth for next gen weapons is still there depending on advancement of engines), to increasing engine burn out by 10 times the amount on upperstage engines keeping same dimensionss, to creating minauture methane recoverable rockets from Amur to Irkut, to placing scramjets inside aircrafts. I am not worried about anything at this point that would tip the scale of a nuclear war because of certain breakthroughs still being made like material able to withstand higher kinetic temperature than before where there can be black projects with weapons that are more dangerious than these not publically known. I wouldnt stress out too much on the Zircons because everything would just be same old same old where MAD still applies.
 

uk 75

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I am reminded of "Hunt for Red October" and the fear of a "first strike" weapon. Given Putin's fear of "regime change" are these new weapons designed to hit the USA with next to no warning and make launch of a US response much harder?
 

Josh_TN

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Perhaps zircon could be used that way when launched from a sub. All the other new strategic weapons have longer flight/delivery times than a ballistic missile. And to be fair a Trident D5 in a depressed trajectory would have a less than ten minute flight time. Their was a recording of such a test launch several years ago taken from a commercial aircraft. It reduces throw weight/range and accuracy in down range component due to the shallow entry angle, but the ‘smart fuse’ fitted to the W76 mod1 largely removes those inaccuracies. So it’s a threat Russia has lived under for while.
 
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Suetham

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The hypersonic speed is triggered as soon as the booster stage is released and the scramjet starts working to achieve those speeds. I believe the Russians know that the determining factor of Tsirkon is not its description of avoiding detection by enemy systems, but its speed. Hypersonic speed means it must fly relatively high, which means it must be able to be detected at long range, but the high speed will reduce the available reaction time and, of course, the maneuverability would make it a desperately difficult target to be engaged.

Traveling at high altitudes is not a problem because the very high speed means that although the air may be cooler and thinner, the volume of air collected is huge simply because of the flight speed, so it's okay to use a scramjet engine. In reality, the scramjet engine works best at high altitude, so staying at high altitude and diving to land on the target can be a useful concept. Tsirkon will fly at mach 8 only at high altitudes. At high altitudes the air is less dense compared to lower altitudes. The heat accumulated due to friction with the air will be less at these higher altitudes, at which altitude the scramjet will work best, so the Zircon would hardly perform any flight course action at low altitude.

Plasma is created around mach 6 and becomes increasingly detrimental to radio communications thereafter. On mach 8, signals such as GPS reception will be seriously affected.

As for temperature, hypersonic velocities generally generate boundary-layer temperatures of 1000°C or more, enough temperature to saturate the IR sensors, that in itself is not a problem, the Tsirkon probably at terminal velocity, will have speeds at mach 6, SAM missiles like the Russian 48N6 has 6.2 mach speed and even features a semi-active nose radar.

Going back to the IR sensors issue, behind a nose blinded by the plasma, the Tsirkon missile may have forward-facing side IR sensors that it might be able to look even under the plasma. In addition, a normal old technology cooled thermal imager has its elements cooled with liquid nitrogen, cooling the surface of the missile. To overcome the problem of generated heat, Tsirkon can easily have ablative materials near the hot spots (nose) and even pump its liquid fuel through the surface of the skin where heating occurs to prepare the fuel and cool the surface.

Regarding the search for the target, it all comes down to how much the target moves and how accurately the target is located in the first place, it is worth noting that the missile flying at mach 6, will reach the target in less than 7 minutes at 500 km from range, compared to the target ship, it will travel a much shorter distance in any direction, leaving a much smaller target area for the missile to search for the target. Just noting that most ballistic targets when performing the maneuver reduces speed, but for Tsirkon which is a powered missile, then it won't lose as much speed during turns, and can regain lost speed, in the matter facing Tsirkon, slow down speeds before hitting targets is due to target acquisition, last stage tracking, with the scramjet engine burning all the time means more energy and the ability to maneuver without necessarily losing speed.
This was probably already beaten to death by other two users which I dont know if you came across yet but the agreement I can see on both sides is that speed and based on what altitudes are cruised at(no idea how long zircon is staying in 40kms altitude throughout its flight) plasma forms which effects radio frequencies based on their wavelengths. -10 or -15 decibels or whatever it was, was the effects of dropping spheres from space according to a NASA research paper. But what we or what I dont know is would scramjets have more favorable plasma conditions because I take it that spheres have a creeping wave return while I think scramjets dont suffer from such effects from radars. And the obvious no shit example of scramjets besides being hypersonic is the advantage of lower altitudes over ballistic missiles.
Also the communcation part with the missile was already beaten to death here as well. https://www.technologyreview.com/20...black-out-problem-for-re-entering-spacecraft/

What you said is true, it just confirms what I said.

Let me clear the whole thing about missile communication. The Russians weren't the first to create a kind of communication with the spacecraft reentering the atmosphere, it was NASA. Until the entry of the "Tracking and Data Relay Satellite System" (TDRSS), upon re-entry into the atmosphere, the space shuttle suffered a blackout preventing it from communicating with ground stations, although this gap without communication depended on many things such as the shape of the shuttle space, the angle of reentry, speed and other things, the fact is that all space shuttles suffered the blackout, some for 9 minutes, others for 30 minutes and depending on the conditions previously reported. That ended with the introduction of TDRSS.

The TDRSS allowed the shuttle to communicate by relay via data relay satellites during re-entry, through a hole in the ionized layer at the end of the shuttle's tail, created by the shape of the spacecraft. NASA and China National Space Administration have data relay satellites (for NASA this is TDRSS), which allow tracking and communication during the blackout, basically, the rear end of the re-entry vehicle is not obstructed by plasma.

Because of the shape of a warhead when it reenters the atmosphere, the rear end will likely not be obstructed by the plasma, and thus, at the rear, the temperature would be thousands of times lower, so the only place that can receive a data relay sits in the The same way the space shuttle communicates with the TDRSS during re-entry, I think the Chinese did it with the DF-21D.


In other words, communication during reentry even under plasma has been resolved since the 1990s, I'm sure many studies have been done to get around this, the plasma problem being much more significant for reentry vehicles or warheads than for objects that remain in the atmosphere continuously, but the plasma problem still manifests itself.

My problem with these missiles is a Yasen-M(also how stealth are they from SONAR arrays placed on coasts) getting close to our coast and launching an entire barage of them. it will take awhile to get infrared satellites or ground radars to cue the attack is coming to respond effectively with interception methods in which I think it is already too late when a nuclear warhead is flying low above our heads and if detonation occurs all electronics in close proximity are screwed and when it occurs it will cause major radar blind spots depending how fast the frequencies disapate where another barrage of missiles pass through the radar blind spots masking themselves from radars further away targetting them creating a domino effect entering the mainland deeper and deeper assuming they are all getting intercepted while the detonations occur until we are stone age and not browsing secretprojects anymore.
The scramjet works best at high altitudes, some sources indicate the altitude is 40 km, another 30 km, however, I see that at some point in the missile's flight course, it could be operating at 50 km altitude.

The issue of IR tracking of the Tsirkon by the Americans through satellites is not unfeasible, this is because the Tsirkon would have a very significant increase in its IR signature, even at low altitudes, it would hardly go unnoticed by the Americans. On top of that, LM is ready to deploy another IR surveillance satellite, improving surveillance against ballistic and hypersonic missiles: https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/lockheed-martin-completes-sbirs-geo-6-missile- warning-satellite-2021-10/
 

Josh_TN

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Not addressing most of the above posts, but as far as satellite detection goes, the booster that can loft a 3 tone missile into the scramjet regime could probably be detected, though not tracked. DSP satellites could detect Scud launches in 1991; it wouldn't surprise me if SBIRs (the current early warning system) could detect a large solid rocket booster with that much of a burn time.

In the future the US intends to orbit LEO satellites that would not only detect hypersonics, but also track them, ideally with enough accuracy for interception. I believe DARPA's research project is called Blackjack and I think the MDA has some parallel testing going on that includes already scheduled test packages, PIRPL being the first I think in the cue. Pretty sure there are two contracts for four satellites each that will also be orbited, one of which will use the Starlink bus with a 3rd party sensor package.
 

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This is interesting wrt Project 949AM being Tsirkon capable, Orel test launched a Granit a year ago, and then again in early September and the Granit launchers were supposed to have to been taken out to replace them with the Kalibr/Oniks/Tsirkon capable SM-315 launchers. I don't think it's definitive, as you could replace some of the Granit launchers and not others, but the question is why you would do that.
 

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That’s weird. Why wouldn’t it get an upgrade for the latest weapons? Granit seems unnecessarily large in this day and age; I can’t imagine retaining any tubes for that purpose when there’s already a half dozen Oscars that don’t have an upgrade.
 

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