Re-arming the UK: What equipment? and how much?

Aegrotare said:
It is really incredible that at the start of 2040 there will only be about 10 modern Mayor air defenders in Europe and 8 will be from Germany. How the mithy have fallen.
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There would be 14 with the dutch while with a bit of luck atleast Italy could procure some more and theres also turkey to be fair.
When we are by the topic are there any official plans known for france?
 
Aegrotare said:
It is really incredible that at the start of 2040 there will only be about 10 modern Mayor air defenders in Europe and 8 might be from Germany. How the mithy have fallen.
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The netherlands will have 4 FuAD with ~80 VLS cells
Italy will have at least 2 DDX, probably 4 by 2040 to replace the horizons
France also has to replace it's Horizon class by 2037-39, probably 2, maybe 4
The UK will also eventually replace it's T45 ...

You're basically betting on a german naval program to go smoothly (lol), and that none of the major European navies will start moving in that direction.
 
Titus K said:
The netherlands will have 4 FuAD with ~80 VLS cells
Italy will have at least 2 DDX, probably 4 by 2040 to replace the horizons
France also has to replace it's Horizon class by 2037-39, probably 2, maybe 4
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He was only counting contracted said to be bought
 
kqcke for you said:
He was only counting contracted said to be bought
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He didn't say that.
And not every country does planning and contracting the same way.
14 years ago, the FDI wasn’t even on the drawing board in France.
Claiming that the RN won’t have any major AAW warship by 2040 seems a bit hasty.

btw, the mighty 10.000 tons F126 were also contracted … where are they now ?
 
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Titus K said:
He didn't say that.
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Yes should have said i think but it fits mostly the ship he named (sure there the dutch and turkish ships but atleast the former aren't that far from Type 83 on some days).
Titus K said:
And not every country does planning and contracting the same way.
14 years ago, the FDI wasn’t even on the drawing board in France.
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Yes but the problem is that its extremely hard to know If and when it comes. For example while we don't know it there may come 12 F127 or maybe spain developts a dedicated AAW ship.

Its an impossible to task to tell what actualy ends on the table from our position because this is a rather fluid development
 
Aegrotare said:
It is really incredible that at the start of 2040 there will only be about 10 modern Mayor air defenders in Europe and 8 will be from Germany. How the mithy have fallen.
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Hang on, little quick to judge. Let's see the document first before we all start raising the black, red and yellow.
 
I think rather than a destroyer hull the Command Ship is likely that to be a variant of the MRSS focussed on supporting aerial, USV and submersible drones rather than amphibious and helicopter borne landings. A ship well and hanger facilities along with a command centre and possibly a crane.

Along with point defence weapons it will likely have some drones in the self protection role but not a large gun or vertical strike as its not intended to get close to opponents but hunt them from a distance.
 
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Aegrotare said:
It is really incredible that at the start of 2040 there will only be about 10 modern Mayor air defenders in Europe and 8 will be from Germany. How the mithy have fallen.
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Firstly, as a dyslexic, I approve of the word "mithy" ;)

Secondly one must presume you're talking about air defence destroyers?
 
WatcherZero said:
I think rather than a destroyer hull the Command Ship is likely that to be a variant of the MRSS focussed on supporting aerial, USV and submersible drones rather than amphibious and helicopter borne landings. A ship well and hanger facilities along with a command centre and possibly a crane.
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Could just be a destroyer hull, without the missile armament, and with the radar.
 
At least Six Common Combat Vessels will be delivered from the early 2030's to replace Type 45 replacing earlier plans for Type 83 Destroyers. They will act as drone command ships working alongside eight Type 26, five Type 31, Type 91 Uncrewed Missile Platforms, Type 92 Uncrewed Underwater Sensing Platforms, Type 93 Extra Large Underwater Platforms and Type 94 Uncrewed Sensor Platforms.


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ps-to-defend-uk-waters-and-boost-shipbuilding
 
That press release also confirms that all planned frigates will be retained from the T26 and T31 classes.

RN escort numbers are not dropping, as was feared for some time.
 
What I'm a little concerned about is the plan for delivery from the early 2030s. T45 should still be serving then, not being pulled out in exchange for these new ships.
 
I mean, for what it's worth, the DIP, despite delays, appears to be alright from a naval and air perspective.

The RAF reportedly get to keep on straight with GCAP and their nuclear squadron for the F-35A.

The RN lose the T83 and the T32, but gain potentially more than six new air defence control frigates, gain four new unmanned surface warship classes, get to keep the 13 T26 and T31 frigates, and will now definitely receive some new dedicated amphibious assault ships, potentially even through-deck designs.

If the 12 new submarines are again committed to, the RN is in a good spot for most of its capabilities, with the exception being the air defence domain, with the new CCV/T9X combo being unproven but promising.

The RN now looks to be firmly on an Atlantic footing, with the carrier operating inside a distributed air defence bubble in the Atlantic, as well as their dedicated escorts.

Meanwhile, the nuclear submarine fleet gives a survivable Atlantic and Pacific presence.

I'm looking now towards infrastructural investment to support submarine maintenance as a major priority, as well as mine hunting motherships from the Norwegians.

What is melancholy, though, is that the RN will now no longer operate a conventional destroyer. As it stands, the T45 is the last in a lineage of RN destroyer designs, with the future fleet now turning to smaller frigates in order to increase mass, placing the RN in a much closer force balance to the French MN.

One might consider the current T26 to be a anti-submarine destroyer: a modern Udaloy-class, perhaps. Certainly it possesses the necessary heft. Yet, the modern definition of the destroyer requires area air defence capability, which, until it receives a radar overhall, the T26 does not have.
 
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Its swings and roundabouts though, remember Destroyers first started off as large motor boats (Torpedo Destroyers and then Torpedo Boat Destroyers) much smaller than Frigates but then overtime became larger.
 
Does the RAF have a CCA program ? If yes is it known if it will get the necessary funds in the new DIP?
 
Yes fast jet CCA was announced last year and funding reconfirmed in the DIP, supposed to be demonstrator flying in 2030. (see also separate market rumour that BAE has won work on the Concept 2) also apparently an attack helicopter escort drone approved in the DIP and the Stormshroud E/W jammer drone.
 
Mike Pryce said:
Naval and army drones too.
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Would you mind quoting the tweet text in case the tweet gets deleted?

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I fear that this overemphasis on drones (at least in the naval sector) is a desperate attempt to bring mass to HM Armed Force without actually committing to long and expensive procurement programmes, using what Ukraine (and, to a lesser extent, Russia) have done with drones (particularly naval ones) as a sort of armour plating to defend against the critique of their choice to lean so heavily on them when the nature of the fight (again, particularly the naval one) is going to be radically different in pretty much every war scenario we reasonably face.

They do represent an important set of capabilities, but we can't forget the platforms (large manned surface combatants) that they are meant to enhance or provide new capabilities to, to do so is like fighting with one arm after you lopped your other off.
 
Titus K said:
Claiming that the RN won’t have any major AAW warship by 2040 seems a bit hasty.
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He's not being hasty, anyone familiar with british procurement knows that the longer this drags on, all the less likely it becomes to see any meaningful development within the next two decades. Out of the major European naval powers, the RN has the least rosy outlook. Meanwhile Italy and France maintain their standing while Germany seeks rapid capability growth (literally 8 DDG(X) type AAW ships to be procured).
 
Germany has just cancelled six 10,500 ton F126 frigates due to the chosen contractor being unable to meet delivery deadlines and switching to a different contractor too expensive. Instead it will switch to eight 4,000 ton F128 AAW frigates of which two were already laid down as Meko 200 general purpose frigates but were already being hurriedly refit into AAW because the F127 you mention intended to replace the 3 existing 5,700 ton F124 AAW Frigates wont enter service for another decade.
 
EmoBirb said:
while Germany seeks rapid capability growth (literally 8 DDG(X) type AAW ships to be procured).
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Key words.
He literally said, “how the mighty have fallen”… English is my third language, but to me that’s present tense.
If that’s not being hasty, I don’t know what is.

A couple of days ago, the Royal Navy was also “seeking” 12 SSN-AUKUS and a 1.000-ship navy… allow me to be just as doubtful until things actually float.
 
WatcherZero said:
Germany has just cancelled six 10,500 ton F126 frigates due to the chosen contractor being unable to meet delivery deadlines and switching to a different contractor too expensive. Instead it will switch to eight 4,000 ton F128 AAW frigates of which two were already laid down as Meko 200 general purpose frigates
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No? If i havent Overlook es anything each of these Meko A200 will be a new production beginning this year. Now there some F126 that have been started but yeah.
WatcherZero said:
but were already being hurriedly refit into AAW because the F127 you mention intended to replace the 3 existing 5,700 ton F124 AAW Frigates wont enter service for another decade.
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Again theres no ship being refitted as AAW ships. Yes the F123 are getting a refit but thats because F126 was comming already late before comming really late. Yes the F123 will get new almost everything but thats because its pretty mutch the same ship from back in the 90s. Now they need to modernise them just so they actualy stay relevant and usable (and that barely because theres still a lot of old shit (even old back then....).
Fun fact one of the reasons the F123 are late for there modernisation is because they needed to create custom floppy disk
 
They aren't creating custom floppy disks, the original ships used 8" Floppies and the refit will use SSD's with the same 80 kilobytes of data stored on them. Its not unheard of old ships to keep using old tech (though for a ship built between 1992 and 1996 5.25" floppies were already obsolete never mind 8" (they stopped manufacturing them in 1995) with 3.5" being the norm and CD's already having been around for a decade). But they aren't unique in being slow, until 2024 Japan required you to still submit your tax returns on 3.5" floppies.
 
WatcherZero said:
They aren't creating custom floppy disks, the original ships used 8" Floppies and the refit will use SSD's with the same 80 kilobytes of data stored on them.
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Your right guess i had it a bit wrong in my memory
WatcherZero said:
Its not unheard of old ships to keep using old tech (though for a ship built between 1992 and 1996 5.25" floppies were already obsolete never mind 8" (they stopped manufacturing them in 1995) with 3.5" being the norm and CD's already having been around for a decade). But they aren't unique in being slow, until 2024 Japan required you to still submit your tax returns on 3.5" floppies.
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Well it does feel slow when this was opened in 2024 when the modernisation is happening since 2021 and this isnt even the first MLU for these ships. But to be fair the F124 MLU doesn't seem to be that mutch better around anyway but we should stop this as we kinda are in the wrong country
 
LightningFan1959 said:
Would you mind quoting the tweet text in case the tweet gets deleted?
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BREAKING: After many months, the Defence Investment Plan WILL finally be launched tomorrow by Keir Starmer in a speech at a British defence firm

As part of the ~£15bn plan he will announce a £5 billion investment in drone technology over four years. The money will see Britain building a drone-forward armed forces. Details below

He will also confirm my scoop from Sunday that a new Uncrewed Systems Taskforce will be launched to test and train new drones and that there will be NO new Type 83 Destroyers or Type 32 Frigates.

ARMY

£50 million over the next 12 months for the Army’s RAPSTONE programme, funding FPV and interceptor drones.
A new programme to develop and produce uncrewed vehicles.
Up to 24 autonomous armed drones to fly alongside Apache helicopters for recon, strikes and electronic warfare (Project NYX).
Up to 24 surveillance drones to replace the Watchkeeper system (Project Corvus).

NAVY

⚓️ Type 91s - Uncrewed missile platforms.
⚓️ Type 92s - Uncrewed sense platforms to hunt enemy submarines across the North Atlantic.
⚓️Type 93s - Extra-large uncrewed underwater vessels to work with crewed hunter-killer submarines.
⚓️Type 94s - Uncrewed sense platforms designed to scan the skies for threats.
⚓️ Six Common Combat Vessels to come into service by the 2030s.
⚓️ Project PANTHEON - a Hybrid Carrier Air Wing with jet-powered drones to work alongside F-35B fighter jets.

RAF

✈️ The development of new autonomous fighter jets to fly alongside crewed jets - hopes for a demonstrator flying by at least 2030.
✈️ The new Storm Shroud system will also come online this year.
 
Reuben James said:
What I'm a little concerned about is the plan for delivery from the early 2030s. T45 should still be serving then, not being pulled out in exchange for these new ships.
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Also, 'early 2030s' isn't deliverable without a contract being signed, er, about now.

You'll also note that there has been no elaboration of what a 'Common Combat Vessel' actually looks like.
Big_Zukini said:
What's the name of the vessel that services the Type 9x USVs?
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HM Ships DRAKE, NELSON, and NEPTUNE?
 
This is the MoD's announcement.
Note the subtle difference in the Common Combat Vessels difference compared with the above tweet, it says "In the 2030s" which gives a fair bit of slack in actual timing.

Apart from GCAP everything is unmanned.
Project PANTHEON I assume will include Project Vixen which has been ongoing since 2021, and potentially a Crowsnest replacement.
For me a proper HALE UAV for AEW would be better than the Type 94, and I wonder if this means we won't get an AEW replacement?

There is a LOT of fancy networking here - a lot of reliance on secure datalinks and remote computing power. In an age of AI-controlled EW potentially disrupting such links it feels more than brittle. This is a massive high-tech gamble and all three Services are going to have to step up to meet the training and capability requirements necessary.
Plus us Brits know how public-funded IT projects tend to go - a billion quid down the drain for a buggy system that barely works.

Royal Navy​

The Royal Navy is transforming into a Hybrid Navy, combining autonomous vessels and AI with warships and aircraft, including:

  • Type 91: Uncrewed missile platforms to increase the firepower of the Hybrid Fleet.
  • Type 92: Uncrewed sense platforms designed to hunt enemy submarines across the North Atlantic, supporting our new frigates.
  • Type 93: Extra-large uncrewed underwater vessels which will work alongside crewed hunter-killer submarines to seek and destroy enemy submarines.
  • Type 94: Uncrewed sense platforms designed to scan the skies for threats to the hybrid navy or the homeland.
  • In the 2030s, we will expand the numbers of the above platforms and bring at least six Common Combat Vessels into service as the brain of a networked Maritime Air Defence system.
  • Project PANTHEON: Development of a Hybrid Carrier Air Wing, including trialling jet-powered drones to work alongside our F-35B force.
  • Our Royal Marine Commandos will benefit from further investment in their transformation, equipped with new high-speed boats and the latest drone and autonomous technology.

British Army​

The British Army is increasing its lethality, including through:

  • A major investment into inexpensive expendable autonomous systems and loitering munitions to enhance the lethality of the Army, including a £50 million boost over the next 12 months for the Army’s RAPSTONE programme, funding additional first person view and interceptor drones.
  • Uncrewed Ground Vehicles: A new programme to rapidly develop and produce uncrewed vehicles and their associated mission systems for the Army through UK industry.
  • Project NYX: Up to 24 autonomous armed drones will be operational by 2030, flying alongside the Army’s recently upgraded Apache helicopters. They will carry out reconnaissance, precision strikes, and electronic warfare.
  • Project Corvus: Up to 24 surveillance drones to replace the Watchkeeper system, carrying out intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance.

Royal Air Force​

The Royal Air Force is transforming, investing in:

  • A new, national Collaborative Combat Air programme: The development of new autonomous fighter jets which will fly alongside crewed jets, to defend the UK’s skies with a demonstrator flying by at least 2030.
  • Storm Shroud system: Bring our new uncrewed electronic warfare drone into service this year.
This Defence Investment Plan is delivering the vision set out in the Strategic Defence Review and placing defence on a stronger, more sustainable footing.

The Defence Investment Plan will prioritise growing sovereign British AI and autonomous technology, drawing on the UK’s world-leading research base – collaborating with key allies and positioning Britain to export cutting-edge defence capabilities internationally.
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Only skimming it, procurement of submarine floating docks has been increased from 2 to 3.

Project NYX £220m for 24 autonomous Apache escort drones by 2030.

About 4x the investment in undersea assets as surface assets over the next four years. (£62bn vs £15.74bn)

£8.6bn allocated to GCAP over next four years taking total spend to £11.3bn. (£5.4bn for Typhoon including £1bn on LTE and £2.2bn on F-35 including purchasing F-35A's, £300m for CCA.)

£1.4bn on Stratus missiles, £460m CAP3, £490m Energy Weapons, £210m suicide drones, £460m Spear 3, £770m R&D Deep Precision Strike, £6.4bn other munitions over next four years.
 

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