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R-23, R-24 & R-27 AAM

overscan (PaulMM)

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The 36T heat homing head is an air-to-air missile head. It is intended to guide missiles to air targets. The homing head feeds the missile control circuit with signals proportional to the angular rate and bearing angles of the target via two channels. The homing head is fitted with a built-in circuit to ensure its jamming immunity to hot decoys.

Azov Optical and Mechanical Plant Production Association article from Milparade website
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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From mrdetonator:

R-23T

The R-23T is a guided A2A missile, with passive infrared target detection with proportional navigation guidance, used for engaging manuevering and non-maneuvering targets from rear aspects at normal weather conditions at day/night and outside clouds. Apart from destroying aerial targets the missile can be used for engaging small IR contrast ground targets. The missile consists of 6 sections:
1. The missile head section the TGS-23 contains a tracking-gimbal system with a nitrogen cooled photoresistor. The nitrogen cooling system ensures temperatures of -195degree C at normal condition what increases the photoresistor detection range by 1,5-2 times compared when uncooled. Four destabilisators are mounted on the missile head section. The nitrogen bottle is installed in the rear part of the APU-23M launch adapter.
2. contains the radio proximity fuse Tchaika-M, working on cm wave band with emmit/receive antennas placed between second and fourth missile section. The Tchaika-M fuse compares the frequencies of emmited/received energy, uses the doppler effect to determine its proximity to the target,and sends the signal to the safety-arming device which triggers the warhead detonation. Due to safety reasons the Tchaika-M radio fuse starts to operate after leaving the APU-23M with time delay of 2 to 4 seconds. The second section also includes nitrogen piping leading to the IR seeker.
3. autopilot, this section is connected to the APU-23M pylon via two electrical umbilical cables.
4. The safety-arming device which prevents an unwanted warhead explosion when manipulating on the ground or within safety distance to the aircraft-carrier. It initiates the warhead according to signals received from the Tchaika-M fuse, impact sensors or when the auto-destruction time has been expired. Warhead type, fragment or continuous rod.
5. The energetics section, gas generator, a source of frequency/amplitude stabilized voltage for actuators, autopilot and other systems. A solid propelant rocket motor PRD-194, this section contains four wings and two APU-23M pylon joints (middle,rear). The middle joint also contains an electrical contact to initiate the rocket engine.
6. Rear control surfaces, end cover or the smoke tracer TK-23 can be attached.

R-23R

The R-23R radar guided A2A missile, semi-active cw with proportional navigation guidance, for engaging maneuvering and non-maneuvering targets from all-aspects, front and rear hemispere at all weather conditions. Missiles R-23R and R-23T are practically identical in terms of design and performance data. The R-23R differs by:
The front section includes a radome of conical shape with a SAHR type-seeker the RGS-23 with a different type of protection cap used. The second section doesn`t include the piping for nitrogen gas.
R23R launch procedure: When the target has been locked by the Sapfir-23 radar, the RGS-23 seeker is tuned exactly on frequency "litera" of the Sapfir-23 continuous-wave trasmitter(KNP). The seeker is receiving signals, corrections relating to the aiming errors. These pre-launch correction signals are used to turn the missile to the right direction after launch. The aiming errors are proportional to the deviation between the crosshair and the aiming circle. If the missile is ready to launch, the indicators "3" and "4" appear on the ILS display. When the target is within the AVM`s computed launch distance, the "PR" command is given. The target should be illuminated until missile impact or the command "OTV". When the RGS-23 seeker achieves lock-on, the misille switches to the proportional navigation guidance after 0.5sec.

few pictures.....






Basic performance data of R-23T/23R


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
a few details whether the Mig-23MF is able to carry the R-23R and the R-23T at the same time.
-The R-23R is connected to the AVM-23 analog computer through the coupling block the "S23D-88". The block ensures tasks:
Supplies low-voltage to the RGS-23 seeker, supplies modulated selfcontrol signal to RGS-23 high-frequency block, checks the missile status, gives the missile "ready" signal, feeds the RGS-23 seeker with the target data (angular dev., frequency), etc
-The R-23T is connected to the AVM-23 analog computer through the coupling block the "23T-BS". The block ensures:
Linkage between the Sapheer-23 radar and the TGS-23 during target acquisition, ensures line scannning of the TGS-23 seeker and increases its FOV, controls the angular deviation between the TGS-23 and the Sapfir-23 during the target tracking phase, etc.
Only one block can be carried at the same time, meaning that the Mig-23MF is limited either to two R-23R or two R-23T. Even though this has been known limitation for all Warshaw pact Migs-23MF, Ahmad`s argumets about the Iraqi MF carrying both missiles at the same time can be true. There are indications(sources) claiming that most of Iraqi MF were upgraded to ML
standart. Czekoslovakia got the Migs-23MF three-four year earlier compared to IRAQ. The Warshaw pact Mig-23ML can carry both R-23R and R-23T at the same time, because it carries both blocks in the fixed section of the right wing.
 

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Vadifon

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Wow! Big thanks!
Max. target tracking rate (degree/sec) & instantenous FOV for RGS-23 seeker ...somebody knows?
 

Vadifon

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Do you have information about any monopulse seekers (Max. target tracking rate (degree/sec) & instantenous FOV )?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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In 1986 is begun the work on creation of inertial- semi-active RGS-31 seeker for the advanced missile K-27EM (OKR “Malakhit”). During July 1991 of work on the theme “Malakhit” were stopped.

In 1989 of the Ministry of Defence because of reduction in the size of financing, connected with the reconstruction (Perestroika), forewent the continuation of works on rocket K -27A with ARGS of 9B-1103 and decided to concentrate efforts on the rocket R -77 with ARGS of 9B-1348 (NIR " Soyuz"). This GSN was created from 1982 together with GNPP “Istok”.

In 1981 was shielded the preliminary design of the passive homing head of 9B-1032, intended for the rockets “air-to-air” of the type R -27P, under chief designer K. G. Bronstein.

http://www.missiles.ru/VPK-missiles-sys.htm
 

Dilbert

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Vadifon said:
Do you have information about any monopulse seekers (Max. target tracking rate (degree/sec) & instantenous FOV )?

Instantaneous FOV can be calculated from the half-power beam-width of a uniformly illuminated circular aperture:

(29.2 degrees) * (wavelength) / (radius)

Sources:

- C.A. Balanis, Antenna Theory Analysis and Design
 

Dilbert

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Re: R-27 AAM

Hmm, did you edit this post after writing it?

Vadifon said:
The defining feature of a monopulse seeker is the ability to follow a jamming signal, regardless if it's pulsed or CW. Of course for normal operation, CW illumination is always the best, but it's not required by the monopulse seeker as it is for a conical-scan seeker.
::) if "CW illumination is always the best for a conical-scan seeker" could you tell me the other modes of illuminations?

The pulse repetition frequency (PRF) of the radar is usually in kiloHertz, much faster than the rotation of the conical scan, that is in dozens of Hertz. So, a sufficiently high MPRF or HPRF illumination looks to the seeker very similar to CW, but with reduced power.

re. CW:
after lounching a missile STT mode and CW mode are working by turne. Thus CW mode is called ДНП (Discretely continuously illumination ) in Russian aircraft.

Hmm. I always thought that the Russian missiles homed directly on the "quazicontinuous" (HPRF) illumination, not separate CW. Consider:

"Here the PRF is 1 KHz and 5 KHz. The quasi-continuous frequency is 100 KHz; it is used only in guiding the R-23R and R-24R Semi Active Radar Homing Missiles. The difference between the western approach and the eastern approach is that the western (not always; the French didn’t adopt this approach in the Matra Super-530 missile) approach use a pure carrier while the eastern approach was to use high repetition pulse. The Soviets never used the western solution for guidance; in fact they criticize it in their scientific literature."

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=25.msg481#msg481

It's not a contradiction?
 

Vadifon

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Re: R-27 AAM

The defining feature of a monopulse seeker is the ability to follow a jamming signal, regardless if it's pulsed or CW
Hmm… what is the defining feature of the passive seekers?

Where did you get the information about “a monopulse seeker is the ability to follow a jamming signal”?
Actually I thought that an angular tracking of jamming target occurred according returned radar pulses against the jamming background. Each launched semi-active missile adjusts on the particular frequency (Litera) and follow it. Or maybe I’m wrong and the semi-active seeker follows a jamming signal?

Hmm. I always thought that the Russian missiles homed directly on the "quazicontinuous" (HPRF) illumination, not separate CW. Consider:
РНП и ДНП are illuminating at the same diapason but with the different frequency. РНП is only for target tracking (angular position, range and closing speed) and ДНП is only to illuminate for the missile. As I mentioned above they work by turn.
It's not a contradiction?
I don’t know since Sapfir-23 is a pulse radar with moving targets selection and H-001/019 is a pulse-Doppler radars.
 

Dilbert

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Re: R-27 AAM

Vadifon said:
The defining feature of a monopulse seeker is the ability to follow a jamming signal, regardless if it's pulsed or CW
Hmm… what is the defining feature of the passive seekers?

You mean like R-27P passive variant?

It's a good question. I'm not really sure, but I would guess that the seeker has a wider bandwidth, so that it can lock onto signals from APG-63 and other Western radars. Normal R-27R is "tuned" to a specific illuminating frequency - it can home either on the target illumination by the own friendly radar, or on the target ECM, that is jamming the same frequency.

Where did you get the information about “a monopulse seeker is the ability to follow a jamming signal”?

We know from passive heat-seeking missiles that range information is not necessary for proportional navigation homing, but angle information is necessary.

From:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/fun/part05.htm

"It is very difficult to deceive a monopulse radar in angle..."

Actually I thought that an angular tracking of jamming target occurred according returned radar pulses against the jamming background. Each launched semi-active missile adjusts on the particular frequency (Litera) and follow it. Or maybe I’m wrong and the semi-active seeker follows a jamming signal?

Yes, it follows the jamming signal, that is normally on the same frequency as the illumination, but stronger. Most jamming signals can only deny range or Doppler information to the seeker.

Hmm. I always thought that the Russian missiles homed directly on the "quazicontinuous" (HPRF) illumination, not separate CW. Consider:
РНП и ДНП are illuminating at the same diapason but with the different frequency. РНП is only for target tracking (angular position, range and closing speed) and ДНП is only to illuminate for the missile. As I mentioned above they work by turn.
[/quote]

Why does the MiG-29 manual then say that "if track is lost while the missile is in flight, immediately illuminate the target in Scan mode"?
It sounds like the scan illumination must use the same frequency as missile illumination.

Also, what does "diapason" mean? I always thought that it meant, "frequency." :)
 

Vadifon

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Re: R-27 AAM

Dilbert said:
You mean like R-27P passive variant?
No, R-27R
It's a good question. I'm not really sure, but I would guess that the seeker has a wider bandwidth, so that it can lock onto signals from APG-63 and other Western radars.
Hmm... "R-27R is "tuned" to a specific illuminating frequency" (Литера) - it's narrow bandwidth
Normal R-27R is "tuned" to a specific illuminating frequency - it can home either on the target illumination by the own friendly radar ...
see above .... for each lounched missile has own frequency (Литера). if track is lost while the missile is in flight, illuminating frequency for the missile is not restored - missile is lost. Relocking the same target does not restore same frequency illuminating - missile is lost
...., or on the target ECM, that is jamming the same frequency.
About it later ...most probably in Lockon Beta forum :)
We know from passive heat-seeking missiles that range information is not necessary for proportional navigation homing, but angle information is necessary.
I not about it ...If only jamming signal coincide with target illumination frequency ( in narrow bandwidth ) ... during radar illuminating
Yes, it follows the jamming signal, that is normally on the same frequency as the illumination, but stronger. Most jamming signals can only deny range or Doppler information to the seeker.
yes, but ....about it later
Why does the MiG-29 manual then say that "if track is lost while the missile is in flight, immediately illuminate the target in Scan mode"?
It sounds like the scan illumination must use the same frequency as missile illumination.
Probably error of translation. Nothing of the kind in russian manual - quite the contrary
Also, what does "diapason" mean? I always thought that it meant, "frequency." :)
I mean X-band .... i quoteing russian manual ;D
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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VERY interesting article on K-23 development, also some interesting stuff regarding Sapfir-23, can be found here:

http://www.airwar.ru/weapon/avv/k23.html

I am translating it to English currently.

Part 1:

Preliminary studies for the K-23 AAM began in 1961, presumably to arm the Ye-8 (then called MiG-23). Maximum range was intended to be 16-18 km, the permissible altitude difference 4 km and the weight 150 kg. The intention was to allow 4 AAMs to be carried by the MiG-23 but also to counter the Sparrow-equipped Phantom. Semi-active and combined (IR/semi-active) homing versions were planned. The combined version was intended to ensure ECM resistance, and low level (200m-1000m) capability, but it was more complex both in the design and the performance. Therefore for the combined seeker was allowed a 2km reduction in maximum range, and the timescale for testing extended to 1966.
Design responsibility for the SARH seeker and the radio channel for the combined seeker given to NII-339 Phazotron, which was developing the Sapfir-23 radar. The developer in charge of the combined seeker and its IR channel was TSKB-589.
It soon became clear that the combined seeker was excessively complicated. A similar combined seeker for the K-13 was also proving difficult. TSKB-589 developed a traditional IR seeker as a backup.
At first the K-23 was created as thedevelopment of the K-13A layout, with rollerons for limiting rate of roll. As early as 1964 this early layout was wind tunnel tested. It became clear that a fundamental reworking would be needed.
The RGS-23 SARH seeker was designed to home on reflected signals from the Sapfir-23 radar. This radar was studied in two versions prior to 1963; pulse Sapfir-23I (similar in basic technology to Sapfir-21 then in testing for the MiG-21) and pulse doppler Sapfir-23N.
With the 1963 transition to the experimental design stage, preference was given to the more achievable Sapfir-23I design. However, NATO was just in the process of switching to low level operations. 18 months after the first decree of the CPSU, a new decree refined the MiG-23 configuration. The aircraft of short takeoff and landing with the new powerful main engine (R-27) and two lightweight lift engines was set as the basic version. At the same time a supplemental continuous wave channel for the detection of low altitude target, ground mapping, navigation and ranging was added to the Sapfir-23I design.
The application of continuous emission made it possible to realise narrow-band radiation spectrum radar which enables Doppler selection due to the use of a difference in the signal frequencies, reflected from the fixed underlying surface and from the moving flight vehicles. However, in this case arose the possibility of the so-called “pre-start blinding” of the K-23 radar seeker by the emission of radar sidelobes.

For the first time in the USSR flat micromodules were used in a rocket.
 

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overscan said:
VERY interesting article on K-23 development, also some interesting stuff regarding Sapfir-23, can be found here:

I have the original Angelskiy article from 9.2002.

Now that I finally read it, it provides - AT LAST - a reason why the fighter radar antenna might be gyro-stabilized even in lock mode (so confusing, and yet so obvious) - that is: to match the polarization of the missile seeker, regardless of fighter maneuvers.
banghead.gif
 

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[...]Occasion, in order to in earnest examine the need for the yearly flights of lipchan into Mari, was “two” for the combat training, which in Mari placed the commission of the main inspection of Defense Ministry (GI MO), headed by Major General of aviation K. A. Korotjukom, to 145 Fighter Aviation Regiment, which was being stationed in Ivano-Frankovske (14 VA, red banner Kiev military district), which in the number of first air units obtained the tactical fighters 4th generation MiG-29. As it was explained, in the course of checking pilots this regiment do not burn on the gone with the exceeding radio-controlled targets La-17, shooting UR R-27 near the boundaries of the range of their application.

Although the analysis of sarppogramm showed that all flight conditions and launches of rockets completely answered the parameters, recorded under the technical specifications for the application of this type of weapons of destruction, commission GI MO and Major General K A. Karatjuk remained inflexible. The latter was generally characterized by the highest exactingness of podchinjonnym and it was considered not what authorities, but in the period in question it was generally subordinated directly to Minister of Defense. At the same time it clear realized that, according to the large calculation, to present claim to the crew of regiment not for which, about than reported to the chief of the combat training IA VVS the Colonel V.A. Kashirovu.

Analyzing the prevailing situation, the Colonel OF V.A. Porridgeditch here sent in GLITS im. V. P. Chkalov the senior inspector- pilot Colonel P.O. Chernysh, who in the practical flights with the launch of rockets was convinced of the fact that the possibilities of destroyer and its weapon must be refined. However, the latter could be made not after one-two flights, but according to the results of entire test series, whose conducting could be charged only to experienced pilots, the capable of not only not only carrying out this fairly complicated task, but also of analyzing each launch. It is understandable that the best candidature, than Lipetsk, for the solution of this research problem simply it was not. At the same time, in the course of double-sided LTU, it was intended to verify very legislators of procedures in the skill to realize its recommendations under the conditions of the rigid opposition with the crew of 1521 air base. Being honest and fundamental man, Colonel V.A. Kashirov with good reason solved, that “once of instruction on the combat employment were written by the specialists of center, then to confirm declared characteristicsi ABK must precisely they, and it is desirable in the presence of the representatives of developers…”.

It is necessary to note that a similar situation occurred already for the far from first time. In 1976 during launchings UR of short distance R-60 with IR GSN on the aircraft MiG-23 the pilots of 1521 air base noted the regular shutdowns of the engines of aircraft. Let us note,
that R-60, developed by OKB MZ "Molniya" and taken for the armament in 1974 g., did not have equal according to the mass-dimensional characteristics (more than twice it was more easily American “Sidewinder”), but its creation was considered as considerable achievement, since it, according to the idea, provided the considerably larger possibilities of our destroyers in the close maneuverability battle, than old R-13M. when in two years it was explained that MiG-23 (basic at that moment sovestskij tactical fighter) to employ these rockets it does not can, began large trial with the participation of all interested persons and organizations.

Then it was necessary to withdraw entire (!!) from the combatant regiments the reserve of rockets of this type and to gather it in Akhtubinske, where were begun the scale tests, in course of which from onboard of each destroyer were shot four rockets in each departure on those radio-controlled by targets! Was done this, in order, in the first place, to explain why this became possible, and to, in the second place, understand that it is necessary to make, in order to the engines not flameout. It is necessary whether to indicate that the this entire extremely expensive “firework” was arranged for the people money, moreover somebody not long before this obtained rewards, titles and orders. In the process of tests it was soon explained that the report of the progress of tests was written with the crude violations of the existed procedures of altogether only after several launchings.

So to lipchane they proved to be as those checked in Mari, and after by their destroyers MiG-29 strips touched chassis Tu-154, on which to the base of profit the representatives of almost all basic OKB, which worked on fighter aircraft. In the course of a series of experiments it was rapidly explained that developed OKB MZ “Vympel” the controlled intermediate range rocket R-27 with semi-active RL GN and IR GSN (considered as answer to American AIM-7F “Sparrow”) it does not answer according to its characteristics by declared in the documentation given, and not only does not exceed from the basic parameters American ammunition, but also it sufficiently noticeably is inferior to it. To the honor of the colleagues of OKB MZ “Vympel” it is necessary to say that they within the completely compressed periods prepared for the series production the improved versions of rocket (R-27RE and R-27TE), which completely overlapped American article from all parameters and with the significant reserve.[...]

Source:
Pilot 1st Class, Colonel Pyotr Kartashev at Istoriya Aviatsiya
"Metamorphosis of the Air Combat training of the Soviet Air Force in the Post-war period"
 

mrdetonator

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yesterday, I accidentaly found these pictures in my archive. Note the antenna in the R-27R training aid. Despite of that I`ve been assured from a weapon technician that the R-27R currently located in the storehouse have the planar array....so I think what we see here is the "inner evolution" of the R-27R. The old R-27R seeker has already found its way to the museum.
p1060162.jpg

p1060163.jpg
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Hi, Martin.

The pictures you show depict the same seeker head as seen in the museum example, correct?

Then we don't have any evidence yet to support the "planar array antenna" on later models other than the person you spoke to, isn't that fair to say?
 

mrdetonator

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overscan said:
Hi, Martin.

The pictures you show depict the same seeker head as seen in the museum example, correct?

Then we don't have any evidence yet to support the "planar array antenna" on later models other than the person you spoke to, isn't that fair to say?
yes, the R-27R on the picture above has the old style of seeker which we have seen on the PVO museum web page.
yes, I mostly rely on what he is saying, I`m sorry. The evidence of the "planar array antenna" in the R-27R can be found in various books, publications and leaflets.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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The problem is, for example, the R-27R seeker picture Dilbert posted from the Polygon book was taken at a trade show like MAKS. It therefore might represent an active radar seeker upgrade rather than an in service weapon. If it wasn't labelled, then the author might naturally assume that it was a standard R-27R seeker. In a similar vein, other authors have accidently taken the latest product shown and thought it was an older model- I've seen a Zhuk radar labelled in a book as an "N019 radar" for example.
 

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overscan said:
The problem is, for example, the R-27R seeker picture Dilbert posted from the Polygon book was taken at a trade show like MAKS. It therefore might represent an active radar seeker upgrade rather than an in service weapon. If it wasn't labelled, then the author might naturally assume that it was a standard R-27R seeker. In a similar vein, other authors have accidently taken the latest product shown and thought it was an older model- I've seen a Zhuk radar labelled in a book as an "N019 radar" for example.
yes, I see your problem. Unfortunately, I`m not able to verify it my self, so I must believe that he is right. In that vein we can also question anything we`ve been discussing on this forum, bcs we mostly rely on authors like Y.Gordon and others...
 

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On a related topic -
I recently read in the IAPR #14 MiG-23 article that the R-24R has the ability to make 8 G turns, and the ability to engage a 7 G target.

Is there not a mathematical rule of propotional navigation, that the missile needs to have 3 times the G-performance of the target, in order to complete the intercept?
 

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I believe the missile could engage targets manouvering up to 8g, and could be launched by the host aircraft while manouvering up to 7g, but I'd have to check that. You are correct; for a Mach 3+ missile to engage a subsonic target turning at 8g, it would have to be pulling probably 30g or more itself.
 

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R-23R versus AIM-7

Back at www.airwar.ru:

Chart providing Dmin and Dmax of the R-23R versus AIM-7.

Source: airwar.ru http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/mig23m.html
 

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crossiathh

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While the graph for pursuit for the R-23R nearly matches the numbers given by Alexander taken from the a combat manual (Airforces Monthly October 2003), it doesn't for head-on.
The same is almost true for the AIM-7F.

Source: "MiG-23MLD vs Western Fighters" by Alexander Mladenov in Airforces Monthly October 2003
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Rocket R -23 was created for the destroyer MiG-23, whose BRLS was for the first time equipped with the system of the selection of the moving purpose (SDTS). For guaranteeing the guidance of rocket to the target of the against the background underlying surface it was the time [rabotana] RGS of continuous emission, the selecting moving target against the background of the earth because of the Doppler effect of the reflected from it signal. RGS-23 accomplishes a sequential target search in the frequency, detection and tracking of monochromatic signal, power measurement of noise-like signal, dividing in the value of the angular of fluctuation the concentrated on the angle source of noise interference and distributed along the angle of reflection from the underlying surface. With the attack of target in ZPS against the background of the earth these reflections
coarsen head, decreasing the distance of the target lock-on; however, the analysis of the angular of fluctuation it protects RGS from the false seizures.

The velocity selector servo in the frequency retains the signal of purpose in the strip of the gauge of error angles. The noise-like signal, which acts at the frequency of purpose, falls into the same strip, moreover under the influence of narrow-band noise interference angle tracking is restored because of the search in the frequency.

In RGS-23 is used the extremely effective method of constructing the monopulse receiver, known in the literature as “filter-limiter- filter” or the diagram of 8[NSSh]. The essence of this method lies in the fact that summary signal and moved 90° relative to it modulated difference signals are summarized, are strengthened and are limited. As a result is formed the signal, modulated on the phase so that the index of modulation it is proportional to angular error.

This method was used in all subsequent developments of the domestic self-homing heads of intermediate range rockets. During its application practically it is not possible to cause the appearance of errors in measuring error angle

The application of inertial guidance to the target lock-on by head made it possible to completely use possibilities of rocket on the correction of the errors of launching. In this case the relationship between the permissible launching range and the distance of seizure proved to be the independent variable from the errors of launching. In the system of control of rocket R-24R the model of kinematic relationships in the revolving coordinate system, connected with the range line, is used also after seizure as the filter for evaluating the angular velocity. Thus, in the system of control of rocket R-24R for filtration and formation of administrations for the first time adapts the filter of Kalman structure, which uses as the nucleus of filter a model of object the kinematic relationships, which connect the angular velocity of range line and relative acceleration.

The modernized rocket R -24 (R -24[m]) is characterized by substantially higher noise protection, and also appearance of a fundamentally new regime of — of guidance to th helicopter e overhanging above the earth.

From Fedosov
 

AHMAD RUSHDI

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In 1997 The Iraqi AF started a project to arm the Mig-21bis with R-23 R and T. I dont know if this is considered a secret project or not.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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I can see how R-23T would work, but to get R-23R to work would surely require fitting sections of the Sapfir-23 radar into the MiG-21bis, which doesn't seem very feasible.
 

crossiathh

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From mrdetonator
But I can say for sure, there is not a single word mentioned about the R-24T/R missiles in all above mentioned documents. Now I believe that the WP countries including Czechoslovakia received the Mig-23ML variant A or better I should write the Mig-23MLA, but without any usage instruction for the R-24R/T. No wonder, because the R-24 just entered the service in the
Soviet VVS. For example the Czechoslovakia got their Migs-23MLA (17pcs) in the time period between autumn 1981 to spring 1983. Lately when the production of the R-23 had been stopped the R-24 became the basic A2A weapon for the export Mig-23MLA.
The R-24 uses the same cabling connection as its predecessor the R-23, therefore it can be attached to any Mig-23ML/MLA via the standart APU-23M1E launch adapter. But the Mig-23MLA weapon system the SUV-2ML-01 would recognize and launch it as the old R-23. The AVM-23 analogue computer had to be adjusted to calculate the correct launch distances and thus exploit the seeker`s higher detection range and better ECM capabilities of the R-24. I got this technical information from the "first
hand" a deputy designer in chief of the Vympel bureau itself. Probably a similar process of the AVM-23 reconfiguration underwent tests in the LSK/LV in late eighties, thanks crossiathh for providing the photographic evidence.
The reasons why we (Czechoslovakia) haven`t seen the R-24 in our airforce is rather prosaic. We had a sufficient amount of R-23R/T (approx. 150pcs) initially delivered with the Mig-23MF batches in the 1979-80. Because of very low attrition rate during the cold war, there wasn`t need for more missiles. The only aicrafts carrying them were the Quick alert forces(PoSy), which were taking-off three to four times per month, in case there were no combat alerts. The lifetime of a missile depends on flight hours or number of landings. When missiles almost exhausted their lifetime(one hour left), they were stored and used during the live fire excercises on the Astrakhan or Balt polygon which took place very rarely. On the other side, the situation in the middle east differed compared with the Europe of 80`s. War conflicts needed to be fed with new missiles often and speedily.

To use a R-24 effectivly with the MiG-23ML (23-12A) the weapon control system has to be provided with the correct parameters for this missile typ to calculate the necessary data (Dmin, Dmax, Heading etc...). This is done providing the AZWM (аналоговая цифровая вычислительная машина) with the specific parameter of each missile typ; so for the R-24. If not, the R-24 missile is treated as a R-23; which supports the information given by the Vympel representative to mrdetonator. This "addition" was dependent on the delivery date and most likely on the requirements of the user. The first batch of the german LSK/LV Mig-23ML didn't had the AZWM extention the second had. Quoting mrdetonator, the czech MiG-23ML obviously never had this extention.
BTW, finally all german MiG-23MLs were "R-24 ready", after upgrading the first delivery batch.
 

Pit

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Inside Peruvian's R-27R:

Hpim0103.jpg


Brochure info of the missile:

Hpim0101.jpg


Some data looks pretty pretty interesting.
Max G of missile is: 74 :eek:
Max G of launch aircraft: 07
Max G of target aircraft: 08
Engine thrust: 5000kgf
Warhead fuze setting time: from 1.61 to 3.5 seconds
Maximum range at altitude 20m: 16.5km frontal hemisphere, 4km rear hemisphery
Maximum range at altitude 20km: 90km frontal hemisphere, 20km rear hemisphere.
Time of controlled Flight: 60 seconds
Maximum and minimum altitude of use: from 20 meters to 27.000 meters
Engine weight: 95kg
Warjead weight: 39Kg
 

loco

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Salu-2 PIT
i was hoping for a full Active version of the Peruvian R-27, but as we can see, is the Semi-active seeker.
i have a question, even today, the R-27 Semi-active as it is, remains very popular even in the Russian air force, we know about the Active upgrade kits...

is it still possible to kill an electronically formidable adversary with Semi-active R-27, other than a "lucky shot"? ???
to me it has to have at least a "home on jamming" capability to do so.

el loco.
 

Pit

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Hi Loco.

AFAIK, R-27R didn't have a HOJ mode, N-019 have it.

Best option for any R-27R/ER equiped air force is just to stick to the R-77 or try to get the AE proposed upgrade. R-27 airframe with that improved Agat seeker could be a just nice upgrade program...I don't know the status of the R&D after the cancellation of the original K-27EA program back in the late 80s, but the technology is there, the seaker is there...it's just the need of money.

Against advanced ECM equiped aicraft, like AIDEWS equiped F-16C Block50M, I don't see the oldie R-27R having a chance...
 

Pit

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In case anybody was interested to know, I have official confirmation of the existance and deployment of the R-24MR missiles for MiG-23MLD fleet :D :D :D

Ukraine is currently selling 90 of those missiles, manufactured in 1988-1989, they're in good material state (II) and the whole package is being sold at the nice price of 2270,07 hrvinas or 44.951 US$!!! ;D ;D :eek: :eek: :eek:

The Ukrainians are making bargain of their Air Force, Army and Air Defense...

Just look at what did they sell!!!...

Hundreds of A2G guided missiles!!!

http://zakon.rada.gov.ua/cgi-bin/laws/main.cgi?page=51&nreg=264%2D2005%2D%F0

Would love some help for decifer the prices..some of them looks terrible low!
 

Dilbert

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Pit said:
AFAIK, R-27R didn't have a HOJ mode, N-019 have it.

Every missile with a monopulse seeker has some HOJ capability, it's only not certain against which type of ECM. For example, Ahmad has told us (earlier in this very same topic?) that R-23R ECCM could be defeated with VGPO.
 

shkval

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I've a question.Why the antenna surface of the R-23R seeker is not smooth?There are many grooves in its antenna surface.For what?
 

crossiathh

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shkval said:
I've a question.Why the antenna surface of the R-23R seeker is not smooth?There are many grooves in its antenna surface.For what?
These are no grooves but small metal stripes necessary for a "twist-cassegrain-principle" based antenna. Similar type of antenna was used with the MiG-21/23's radar. Please read through http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,25.45.html in the topic "Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics" within this forum. You will also find a picture of an rp-21 radar showing similar metal stripes in better resolution.
 

shkval

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crossiathh said:
These are no grooves but small metal stripes necessary for a "twist-cassegrain-principle" based antenna. Similar type of antenna was used with the MiG-21/23's radar. Please read through http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,25.45.html in the topic "Mikoyan MiG-23 Avionics" within this forum. You will also find a picture of an rp-21 radar showing similar metal stripes in better resolution.
Great info,thank you!
 

Pit

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R-24T seaker head acquisition ranges, according to forum member "Czich" at airforce.ru's forums:
For example, the distance of seizure [GSN] of rocket R -24[t].

Aircraft F-16, the height of 5000 m, engine operating mode PMG:
in PPS - 3 km;
in ZPS - 25 km.

Aircraft SR-71, the height of 20 km, the speed of 3M:
in PPS - 49 km;
in ZPS of ~150 km.

Helicopter UH-1, low altitude.
in PPS - 1,9 km;
at the side - 2,6 km.
 

Deino

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Does anyone have some more info on these tests !??? :eek:
 

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