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Pre-1940 long range airliner projects

snurg

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I ran across a question on another board about an aircraft project called the EF-100. Doing a little digging on long range (at least trans-atlantic) airliners, I was only able to find information about the Lockheed 049 (Constellation), the DC-6, and the DC-4E.

Who here has information about pre-1940 long range airliner projects that did not reach flight status? I'm only concerned about landplanes, not seaplanes, and only projects aimed at commercial use.

Thanks in advance.
 

Andrewjs2007

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Snurg

The Ef-100 was a Junkers design for Deutsche Lufthansa, which as the war progressed was also considered as a long range bomber/reconnaissance aircraft - see "Luftwaffe Secret Projects - Strategic bombers 1935-1945" by Dieter Herwig and Heinz Rode

Andrew
 

snurg

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I should have been a trifle clearer; I was able to find information about the EF-100 (the post had pointers to it), but on other transatlantic airliner projects.

There must have been quite a few that didn't reach fruition (or at least flight test).
 

Antonio

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I'm going to take a look tonight at Giants of the Sky by Bill Gunston
 

Antonio

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Well, I have been doing some research about this topic as I advanced on my previous post. I have found nothing.

In my humble opinion finding pre-1940 long range landplane airliner projects is difficult because, in fact, few designs were produced.

After WWI, technology from giant bombers was transfered to airliner design (Junkers designed very big airliners for that time). However, at that time, engine technology was not mature to allow a realistic long range airliner to be produced: lack of power and reliability. On the other hand, little airfields/airports could operate such a heavy weight aircraft.

The 30’s are the golden age of the big flying boats. You’ll have more unbuilt designs while looking in this category. The flying boat have no need for undercarriage thus saving weight and complexity. (When Consolidated enginers faced undercarriage design for the B-36 they faced a nightmare). A flying boat was flexible to operate because there was no need for airfield. On trans-oceanic routes a flying boat added a plus of security in case of emergency landing.
From late 30’s, but definely with WW2 there was and end of all big flying boat development and never more a big flying boat airliner (or WiG) design has been considered for production again. The War extinguished that aircraft category while injecting the technology needed to produce viable big landplane airliners. Some designs were straight based on bomber technology (B-17, B-29, B-36) or only to some degree (Brabazon) while others were studied from scratch (German and Italian designs).

Lets wait for the opinions of pre-1945 Aviation gurus Lark and Skybolt ;)
 
J

joncarrfarrelly

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Another Lockheed project was the Model 44 'Excalibur' for Pan Am, it was eclipsed by the Constellation.

The largest British design during the period was the Short S.32, designed to specification 14/38 for a long-range/transatlantic aircraft. Experimental service was to begin in 1940.
Span: 127' 6"
Length: 90' 9"
Empty weight: 39,0505 lb
MTOW: 71,000 lb
Max Speed: 275mph(four Hercules IV) or 330mph if pressurised at 25,000' (four turbo-supercharged Hercules VI)
Range: 3,400 miles

Construction abandoned in May 1940 because of wartime production pressures.

Pages 341 to 344 of 'Shorts Aircraft Since 1900' , revised edition 1989.

Cheers, Jon
 

lark

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To the same Spec. were also the:

Fairey F.C.1
General Aircraft G.A.L.40
Bristol Spec. 15/38

all four engined airliners with a gross Gross weight between 41.000 and 42.000lb -18.000 and 19.000kg.

Extensively described in : A Short Fairey Tale -still-born airliners of the 'thirties
Air Enthusiast (monthly) September 1972 by H.A.Taylor. (7pages)
 
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joncarrfarrelly

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Hi Lark,
according to 'Fairey Aircraft since 1915' the F.C.1 and the designs from Bristol, Folland and General Aircraft, were to specification 15/38 which was for a short/medium haul transport.

Cheers, Jon
 

Antonio

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The British Aircraft Specifications File. Air-Britain Publications.

10-30 seater Civil Airliner for both short (30 passenger) and long range (10 passenger) operation. 4 engined all-metal monoplane. Intended to be in production not later tahn the summer 1940. Fairey was the winner. A mock-up was constructed. The project was cancelled on 17/10/39.


No pic available :'(
 
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joncarrfarrelly

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'Fairey Aircraft since 1915' has an external photo of the mock up, a photo of the mocked up cockpit, two photos of a model built by Fairey... level flight and tricycle gear down, and a 3-view.
The 'long range' with ten passengers cruising at 200mph below 12,000' was to be 1,850 miles.
The 30-passenger version was to have a range of 200 miles.

Cheers, Jon
 

lark

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Please see the thread about the Fairey F.C.1 and Short S.32
started by PNM1 on September 27, 2006...
 

Skybolt

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Well, first iterations of the Miles X-series concepts could be included in this thread, they were from 1937-38.
 

lark

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Welcome back Sky.. :)
 

Antonio

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Thanks a lot for the pdf's Jon, what a smart aircraft.
 

snurg

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Thanks to everyone, and extra thanks to those who provided pointers to more information or pdf's.
 

Skybolt

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Well folks, I refrained to start a new topic on this since the info I found till now are limited to this draft. Anyway, this is a never seen before project by SIAI (not yet SIAI-Marchetti) from 1937 for what looks like a fairly long-range 40-seats plus mail transport. What you are seeing is research still pretty much in progress. This design seems unrelated to the SM-95, a four-engined version of the SM-75, which was built during the war and progressively enlarged (first versions 24-seater, later, post-war, 40-seaters). Only point of contact are the engines (Alfa 126 RC34s) and the general shape of the wing (which SIAI used again and again, progressively going to higher aspect ratios). The nose of the SM-95, for one, was pointed, since the fuselage was the same of the SM-75 minus the third engine, substituted by an aerodynamical fairing. The integral nose of this design is a real exception for SIAI. The draft, which lacks data except for dimensions, weights and fuel, seems have been reworked later (several years later, during the last years of war, from hints I have) by Alessandro Marchetti and added a number after the S. (don't know if it is visible from the image, but on the original is very clear, it's a "94"). The hand-made sketches point to a still more aerodynamically refined shape, that I think was the prelude for something very radical that AFAIK is known only in model form. But this is another story from a time later than the time-frame of this topic. Enjoy and forgive the verbose preface.
 

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Caravellarella

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Dear Skybolt, do you mean that this proposal is actually the SM.94? In some places it is very definitely a Savoia Marchetti, but in other places it is almost like a caricature of a typical 4 engined aircraft! It does seem unusual for Savoia to return to the stepped cabin floor having abandoned it after the S.73/SM.81; not exactly the best way to design a fuselage payload.......

All best, Terry, (Caravellarella).
 

Skybolt

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Well, the design I posted was from 1937, probably one of the baseline projects considered for a 4-engine rather long range aircraft. The one built was the SM-95, a 4-engine version of the Sm-75. The Sm-94 was later (1942) used for a twin-engine (Deltas or DBs) general purpose attack-aircraft, possibly entirely made of wood (same specification of a couple of Capronis designs, one derived from the 313 and the other completely new, later the 380 Corsaro). See http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2411.msg20201.html#msg20201 .
Don't know when it was renamed -94... Surely Marchetti didn't think to reuse the design w/o modifications (the tail is clearly insufficient from a direction stability point of view). And surely he didn't use officially the SM-94 fro this aircraft: actually there are three designations possibly used bu t unknown: SM-97, 98 and 99. The last one was perhaps a very early-post war transport project. What I had in mind writing about something "very radical" is this.....
 

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Caravellarella

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Wow Skybolt, that's a funky model! Looks like an anorexic Constellation to me; but those engine nacelles look very close together don't they? Isn't that the mistake that Philippo Zappata made with the BZ.308?

I wonder how much payload was meant to fit inside this Savoia's blended wing-root (very Miles X-esque)........

All best (and gobsmacked to boot), Terry, (Caravellarella).
 

Skybolt

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No load in the wings. The Miles inspiration was only an inspiration, coming from a late 1938 L'Aeronautique issue with a 3-view design of the Miles X-2 (only surviving drawing, I understand ;D ) Marchett kept in his personal archive. Besides, not all X-projects, and no-one of the early ones had load in the wings. Another differing point is that the engines are conventionally installed at the leading-edge, not buried in the wings. As for the nacelles distance, it's largely an impression due to perspective. See attached. The engines intended were probably late-war Alfa, probably 135 or 138 (double-row radials). Zappata simply didn't change the original disposition, using in-line (probably 603s) to adapt to the Centaurus. BTW, he had to lenghten the nacelle to house the larger diameter Centaurus, that didn't fitted in the leading edge anymore, so the BZ-308 was very unbalanced to the front, expecially at touchdown the pilot had to be very careful to not smash the front landing gear or at best squash the pneus...
Actually I have the original no-number design from which this was derived applying the "Miles touch", but I'm wrinting a book :p, so... wait ;D
 

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Caravellarella

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More wow Skybolt; she looks completely different head on. More like a squashed Constellation and very, very Miles-esque.

I'm visualising the BZ.308 landing nose-down; is that what happened at Mogadishu?

All best, Terry, (Caravellarella).
 

Skybolt

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No, in Mogadishu they veered sidewise and crashed on an excavator doing works on the stripe.
 

Caravellarella

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Oh poor BZ.308 Skybolt. I assume she was broken up for scrap at Mogadishu and never returned home to Italy?

All best, Terry, (Caravellarella).
 

archipeppe

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Caravellarella said:
Oh poor BZ.308 Skybolt. I assume she was broken up for scrap at Mogadishu and never returned home to Italy?

All best, Terry, (Caravellarella).
Unfortunately yep.
Some Italian pubblications, as one of my best source "Storia degli Aerei d'Italia dal 1911 al 1961 di G. Bignozzi e B. Catalanotto" reports that BZ 308 was scrapped in Mogadiscio.
 

Skybolt

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Scrapped, scrapped... some years later pieces of the wings were seen used as roofs for garages and the like (in Third World countries metal has always been very precious..). The African tour of the BZ-308 was a collection of mistakes: they went overloaded, failed to take account of the different standard atmosphere (hot and humid), etc etc. During a transfer, there was even an incident with a lion escaping from his cage... ::)
 

archipeppe

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Skybolt said:
Well folks, I refrained to start a new topic on this since the info I found till now are limited to this draft. Anyway, this is a never seen before project by SIAI (not yet SIAI-Marchetti) from 1937 for what looks like a fairly long-range 40-seats plus mail transport. What you are seeing is research still pretty much in progress. This design seems unrelated to the SM-95, a four-engined version of the SM-75, which was built during the war and progressively enlarged (first versions 24-seater, later, post-war, 40-seaters). Only point of contact are the engines (Alfa 126 RC34s) and the general shape of the wing (which SIAI used again and again, progressively going to higher aspect ratios). The nose of the SM-95, for one, was pointed, since the fuselage was the same of the SM-75 minus the third engine, substituted by an aerodynamical fairing. The integral nose of this design is a real exception for SIAI. The draft, which lacks data except for dimensions, weights and fuel, seems have been reworked later (several years later, during the last years of war, from hints I have) by Alessandro Marchetti and added a number after the S. (don't know if it is visible from the image, but on the original is very clear, it's a "94"). The hand-made sketches point to a still more aerodynamically refined shape, that I think was the prelude for something very radical that AFAIK is known only in model form. But this is another story from a time later than the time-frame of this topic. Enjoy and forgive the verbose preface.
Dear Skybolt, the drawing you enclosed seems to be some low-wing derivative of the SM 74. The two designs share the same squared cross-section fuselage, empennage and other minor details. It could be understood as an attempt to improve the not-so-good performances of the SM 74.
These improvements lead to a design with low-wing and retracteable gear.
In such sense this model (I've read "SM 84" on the drawing, without any connection with the real SM 84 that was a derivative of SM 79 especially conceived as "torpedo-bomber") it could be seen in the middle of the evolution between SM 74 and SM 95.

It could also be an SM 95 ancestor...
 

Skybolt

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It's SM-94, trust me... Could be a derivative of the fixed landing gear SM-74, but in SIAI it is difficult to trace exact relationships, because Marchetti used the same general design components, over and again. The square fuselege is due to the trellis construction, ueed by almost all the SIAI aircrafts. BTW, this project is larger than the original SM-95, which was much shorter than the (later, 1942) built ones and shorter still than the post-war SM-95s.
 

archipeppe

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Skybolt said:
It's SM-94, trust me... Could be a derivative of the fixed landing gear SM-74, but in SIAI it is difficult to trace exact relationships, because Marchetti used the same general design components, over and again. The square fuselege is due to the trellis construction, ueed by almost all the SIAI aircrafts. BTW, this project is larger than the original SM-95, which was much shorter than the (later, 1942) built ones and shorter still than the post-war SM-95s.
Oh, now I see....

BTW I read several times, and in different sources, that the SM 95 was developed also as bomber (a sort of extensions of performances of the SM 82B??), do you have some drawing about the SM 95B, because I found out only brief (very brief) description of this project.
To not go OT I suggest, if you have some material about it, to open eventually a new topic regarding the SM 95 in general and SM 95B in particular....
 

Skybolt

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Archi, I'm the author of the "L'ultimo bombardiere della Regia" article in Aerofan n.99, devoted to the SM-95B... BTW, since I wrote that, some more details have emerged (I made them emerge.. ;D ) from the archives, for example the intended engines (it is left dubious in the article, now it's sure) and performance.
There's a lot to say on unbuilt civilian SM-95s post-war, but
1) Not in this part of the forum
2) I'm preparing an exhibition with related catalogue on this and more 8)
 

archipeppe

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Skybolt said:
Archi, I'm the author of the "L'ultimo bombardiere della Regia" article in Aerofan n.99, devoted to the SM-95B...
UAU SUPERCOOL!!!!!

Skybolt said:
BTW, since I wrote that, some more details have emerged (I made them emerge.. ;D ) from the archives, for example the intended engines (it is left dubious in the article, now it's sure) and performance.
Umh...unluckily I've missed that number (my collection of Aerofan it is incomplete, due to the difficulty to find it out in Naples.....).

Skybolt said:
There's a lot to say on unbuilt civilian SM-95s post-war, but
1) Not in this part of the forum
2) I'm preparing an exhibition with related catalogue on this and more 8)
I eagerly looking forward for this - can I say?? - Christmas gift. ;-)
 

hesham

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Dears all,

look for those transport aircraft projects;
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1942/1942%20-%202631.pdf
 

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Antonio

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SM.95B profile from Flaps Number 219 Spanish mag.(But I think I'm going to order a copy of Aerofan n.99 to learn more :))
 

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archipeppe

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pometablava said:
SM.95B profile from Flaps Number 219 Spanish mag.(But I think I'm going to order a copy of Aerofan n.99 to learn more :))
Oh, great!!!

It seems to have less in common with the SM 95 (except the wing, I suppose) and more in common with the SM 82B (especially the big and deep fuselage).
But, really the SM 95B could be an operational aircraft (considering the strong concurrency of P108B and P133)??
I know that, for such strange reasons, the SM 82B was the only real strategic bomber of Italy, but it was enough to justify the existence of SM 95B or it was some private entreprise of SIAI???
 

borovik

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But this SM-95B from german journal "Flieger Revue" #6.1989 ,( there is certain difference...)
 

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Antonio

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Wow, it's very different. Then my vote is for the German source to be the most reliable.

BTW, the SM.95GA was that intended to raid over New York City?. It doesn't look like a bomber ???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoia-Marchetti_SM.95
 

Skybolt

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Oh my God, the Flieger Revue SM-95B is totally fantasy....
Archi, the "B" used the wings of the civil 95 and a modified SM-82 fuselage.
The Flaps profile is actually a guessdrawing published in an old number of IARB (Italian Branch of Air Britain), the forerunner of Aerofan, I think in 1976... The drawing was a try to recapture the profile of the aircraft based on the few photos (3 in all) of the flying prototype in November 1945 in Centocelle, near Rome. By then the B had been converted (actually, completed) as civilian transport for use with Corrieri Militari. That is the reason of the small windows and of the absence of weapons.
For the long range raid they planned to use the GA version, which wasn't a bomber at all (the bombs would have been propaganda flyers, literally... ;D ).
Ok, I'll start a new topic, but Aerofan n.99 is pretty well available, so please buy it. Just write to my friend Giorgio and ask to be sent a copy: info@apostoloeditore.it
 

archipeppe

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So, now the things are clearer (especially after what written by Skybolt).

The SM 95B drawing posted by borovik is essentially the same published on "Aerei" sept. 1974 page 19 (at that time still Air Enthusiast Italian edition). The image was part of an article entitled "Target: New York" ("Obiettivo: New York") and was explaining the efforts conducted by Regia Aeronautica to do a propaganda bomb run above the American town. The image's caption was clear to explain that the general arrangement of the aircraft was fruit of supposition.

Also I found out a SM 95B profile on "Dimensione Cielo" #9, pag. 90. The drawing is only the profile, polish metal finiture (Co-belligerant marking, no individual number, with caption "SM 95 c/n 5 Vergiate, Milano 1945") with general layout quite similar to Pometablava's drawing.
The only differences are the absence of defense weapons (two side 12,7 mm guns and the front one in the bomber's window) and also more small windows (SM 82 style).
 

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Justo Miranda

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Regarding the Italian plans to bomb New York during the WWII I have the following bibliography:
- Article by Giorgio Evangelisti published in the Spanish magazine "AVION" in August 1971, where it is said that the airplanes used were Savoia Marchetti S.82.
- The article by Carlo A. Caranci published in the Spanish magazine "Historia 16" in July 1993 states that the airplanes used were Cant Z 511/A and S.82.
- Another article by Giancarlo Garello, published in the French magazine "Avions" no. 63 in Juin 1998, says that the airplanes used were Piaggio P.23 R (MM 285), Cant Z.511 or Savoia Marchetti SM 95.
- In the same vein, there is another article by Alberto Rosselli, published in Aviation History, January 2004, that describes an Italy-Japan secret flight made by a SM.75 GA in June 1942

Bibliography:
"Dimensione Cielo" Nos. 8 and 9
"War Planes of the Second World War" - Floatplanes - Volume Six - by William Green, McDonald 1962
 
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