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Pre-1940 long range airliner projects

airman

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Justo Miranda said:
Regarding the Italian plans to bomb New York during the WWII I have the following bibliography:
- Article by Giorgio Evangelisti published in the Spanish magazine "AVION" in August 1971, where it is said that the airplanes used were Savoia Marchetti S.82.
- The article by Carlo A. Caranci published in the Spanish magazine "Historia 16" in July 1993 states that the airplanes used were Cant Z 511/A and S.82.
- Another article by Giancarlo Garello, published in the French magazine "Avions" no. 63 in Juin 1998, says that the airplanes used were Piaggio P.23 R (MM 285), Cant Z.511 or Savoia Marchetti SM 95.
- In the same vein, there is another article by Alberto Rosselli, published in Aviation History, January 2004, that describes an Italy-Japan secret flight made by a SM.75 GA in June 1942

Bibliography:
"Dimensione Cielo" Nos. 8 and 9
"War Planes of the Second World War" - Floatplanes - Volume Six - by William Green, McDonald 1962
thanks justo for bibliographic reference ! :)
 

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Skybolt said:
Oh my God, the Flieger Revue SM-95B is totally fantasy....
Archi, the "B" used the wings of the civil 95 and a modified SM-82 fuselage.
The Flaps profile is actually a guessdrawing published in an old number of IARB (Italian Branch of Air Britain), the forerunner of Aerofan, I think in 1976... The drawing was a try to recapture the profile of the aircraft based on the few photos (3 in all) of the flying prototype in November 1945 in Centocelle, near Rome. By then the B had been converted (actually, completed) as civilian transport for use with Corrieri Militari. That is the reason of the small windows and of the absence of weapons.
For the long range raid they planned to use the GA version, which wasn't a bomber at all (the bombs would have been propaganda flyers, literally... ;D ).
Ok, I'll start a new topic, but Aerofan n.99 is pretty well available, so please buy it. Just write to my friend Giorgio and ask to be sent a copy: info@apostoloeditore.it
..... then SM95B was only version armed of trasport !
::)
 

archipeppe

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airman said:
..... then SM95B was only version armed of trasport !
::)
Just like the SM 82B or the Focke-Wulf Fw 200, neverthelss these arrangements could be pretty effective, if utilized in sufficient number of units (it was a typical problem that affected Regia Aeronautica all over the WWII).
 

archipeppe

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Justo Miranda said:
Regarding the Italian plans to bomb New York during the WWII I have the following bibliography:
- Article by Giorgio Evangelisti published in the Spanish magazine "AVION" in August 1971, where it is said that the airplanes used were Savoia Marchetti S.82.
- The article by Carlo A. Caranci published in the Spanish magazine "Historia 16" in July 1993 states that the airplanes used were Cant Z 511/A and S.82.
- Another article by Giancarlo Garello, published in the French magazine "Avions" no. 63 in Juin 1998, says that the airplanes used were Piaggio P.23 R (MM 285), Cant Z.511 or Savoia Marchetti SM 95.
- In the same vein, there is another article by Alberto Rosselli, published in Aviation History, January 2004, that describes an Italy-Japan secret flight made by a SM.75 GA in June 1942

Bibliography:
"Dimensione Cielo" Nos. 8 and 9
"War Planes of the Second World War" - Floatplanes - Volume Six - by William Green, McDonald 1962
Many thank for this additional bibliographic information Justo!! :D
 

Skybolt

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..... then SM95B was only version armed of trasport !
No, it was the other way around. The Sm-95B was very different from the transport version of 1941-42, the SM-95C. To wrap-up:

SM-95 ---- > original shorter version of 1937, basically an SM-75 with four engines, more load but less range (at the same load) - none built - Alfa 126 engines
SM-95C -----> longer civilian versions of the SM-95, designed in 1941 to fill the gap in the LATI fleet to cover the South Atlantic lines to the still neutral countries in South America - 3 ordered, 2 during the war, went to Germany in 1943, one completed after the war - Alfa 128
Sm-95B ----- > night bomber version, wings as the C, fuselage based of the SM-81 one, with a new nose and with changes in the bomber station and weapons. One ordered and not completed (90 per cent) - Alfa 128. Completed in October 1945 as a transport, with weapons and other equipment removed, used by Corrieri Militari and later by Aeronautica Militare.
Sm-95 ------ > post-war, more stretched design, built and used for commercial service. Various engines, mostly P&W.
SM-95GA ------> 1942 project, identical to the SM-95C except for more fuselage gasoline tanks. Projected range, 15.000 kms. Was to be used for the New York propaganda raid taking off from Bordeaux.

As for the projected long-range raids, the best source is now Giancarlo Garello "Obiettivo: New York", Aerofan n. 62 July-August 1997. The planes were the Cant, Piaggio and SM-95. The SM-82s were used for the raid on Bahrein.
 

Skybolt

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Uh, and the weapons on the SM-95B were to be 5 12,7 guns, one in the nose, one dorsal, one ventral and two lateral.

And the "cobelligerant markings" were actually Italian markings... no more war by then... ;D
 

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Skybolt:

For some time, I've always maintained a vague motivation to 'obtain' (purchase?) the AEROFAN issue(#99) - because of your article. Unwittingly, by fortuitous accident a very few days ago, I 'discovered' this site - and your participation! (Your contribution has perked me! Please describe your article, i.e., illustrations.) Such may be useful to my future subject-briefing; see all below.

I entertain a notion, from time to time: to present a serious ('standup') briefing (my ol' familiar USAF terminology) to a local IPMS convention, subject: Regia Aeronautica 'X-Planes' and you seem to be a subject 'resource' yourself, okay?

Three years ago, Giorgio Apostolo kindly mailed me a 60+pp (photocopied) WWII report, authored by a wartime RAF squadron-leader: on all manner of Italian wartime jet-propulsion projects (text extensively replete with his own aerothermodynamic formulations, but this okay for me - a retired aero engineer!) uncovered from the 'liberated' RSI territory (mostly Milan industrial park areas).

In recent years, I've tried to persuade (apparently w/o success) Giorgio Apostolo to publish articles (or even small monographs) on the following: RA's three major twin-engined fighter-bomber projects: CA 380, SM 91 & 92; also: Ambrosini S.S.4; Piaggio P.23R; follow-on campini projects. Can you help me with these suggestions? (Can you add your own 'weight' to these article/monograph ideas?) Actually, this august editor has done quite well with some 'X-Planes' (especially with Piaggio-project articles). However, as an ex-USAF propulsion engineer (as a long-ago junior officer), I was always keen on the 'latest' stuff, and could never fathom why Mr Apostolo would gravitate to the more technically non-descript aircraft. But you know him better than I do.

By the way, is there any mail-order UK site/book store to obtain past & present 'single' issues of AEROFAN (w/o going thru "ItalianKits")?

Otherwise, very truly yours, on whatever import this inquiry may have to you or others.

P.S. I've waited exactly 40 years for 'someone' to do an honest-to-goodness 1/72 P.108! Truth is: As a 12-yr old boy scout (1964), I waited in vain for Airfix to do one - just to prove my comrades wrong - that the Italians could build a 4-engined aeroplane, after all!
 

Triton

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Lockheed Model 44 Excalibur

Here's the plane that eventually became the world-famous Lockheed Constellation. The aircraft was developed on the basis of specifications issued by Pan American World Airways, but the first Lockheed L-049 was to go to the US Army as a C-69 (though the prototype did make a brief appearance in the colors of competitor Trans World Airline). Source: Stringfellow, C.K., Bowers, P.M. Lockheed Constellation. (St. Paul, MN: MBI Publishing Company, 1992). This fine book is well worth reading and adding to a library.]Here's the plane that eventually became the world-famous Lockheed Constellation. The aircraft was developed on the basis of specifications issued by Pan American World Airways, but the first Lockheed L-049 was to go to the US Army as a C-69 (though the prototype did make a brief appearance in the colors of competitor Trans World Airline). Source: Stringfellow, C.K., Bowers, P.M. Lockheed Constellation. (St. Paul, MN: MBI Publishing Company, 1992). This fine book is well worth reading and adding to a library.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2960412750048918155kJUkvd
 

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Triton

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Fifth concept of Lockheed Model 44 Excalibur from 1939 that became Lockheed Constellation

This is the fifth concept of the Lockheed Model 44 Excalibur, slightly enlarged from the first. In fact, with the exception of the canopy and streamlined engines, this drawing closely resembles the Model 049 (C-69) Constellation. Source: Winchester, J. Lockheed Constellation. (St. Paul, MN: MBI Publishing Company, 2001). I heartily recommend this excellent book.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2432739960048918155DSrHYN
 

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lark

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This is the Excalibur A. It was in fact a Constellation already
with the nose variant 1 (of six).
Nose variant 6 became the final choise.
The name Excalibur was retained during the development phase
of the Constellation to hide the concept for the TWA (Howard Hughes) rivals.
 

Stargazer2006

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I have the same illustration with a caption that says "Excalibur V"... Would that be a mistake for "5", as in the nose variant?
 

lark

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Last Excalibur configuration studied was for a 36 seater.
It received TDN L-144 or Excalibur V.This design had a stepped nose.
Lockheed Vega assigned its TDN V-115 in the hope to share production.


sources : Airliner Classics-Lockheed Constellation.
The Lockheeds that Never Were-part III-AAHS Journal Fall 1999.

p.s. L-144 was also used for an other series of commercial 30-36 seaters..
 

Stargazer2006

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Thanks. Considering the fact that the EXCALIBUR project dates back to the late 1930s, and that the number 144 for the L-/CL- series appears circa 1944, it is safe to say that "L-144" is simply a mistake for "Model 144", a development of the basic "Model 44" (044), true to Lockheed fashion. Further evidence of this resides in the "Model 149" being the L-122. Logically the "Model 144" could NOT carry a later number.
 

Antonio

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I think you're right Stargazer, TDN for Model 44 is L-105. Besides I haven't found references for a Model 144 variant of the Model 44 Excalibur.
 

Stargazer2006

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EXCALIBUR was the Lockheed Model 44 (044-..., 144-...)
It appears under the following TDN: L-105 (18-passenger version), L-112 and L-113.

Interestingly, the earliest CONSTELLATION project was L-104 (Model 049-47-02), then L-117.
The first actual CONSTELLATION was Model 149 (L-122).

Obviously the two aircraft were developed simultaneously and eventually ended up becoming only one aircraft.
 

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Excalibur

Here :" It would be powered by four Wright GR-1820 Cyclone 9 radial engines, rated at 1000 hp (746 kW), or four Pratt & Whitney R-2800 radials. Its wingspan was 95 ft 9 in (29.18 m), its length was 82 ft 6 in (25.15 m), and its projected maximum speed was in the 250-280 mph range (402–451 km/h). Several variants were proposed, to accommodate different passenger loads."
 

hesham

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Here is the Lockheed L-132;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,497.msg65974.html#msg65974
L-132---"The original L-132 design study was completed in February 1942, just after the United States entered World War II. The study was done to obtain a commercial transport aircraft design capable of meeting the (then) current Civil Air Regulation safety requirements of Bulletin 56 amendments. A lot of the Model 49 Constellation series is evident in the various L-132 designs."... Two- or four-engine transport proposal.

AAHS Journal
 

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Stargazer2006

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I think the Lockheed stuff here would deserve a topic all of its own... what do others think? There can always be a link to that page from here.
 

lark

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Good idea Sky...
Since most of them come from the AAHS Journal Series "The Lockheeds that never were" by Bill Slayton
perhaps the file could have the same name.. ;)
 

fightingirish

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Lockheed Model 44 Excalibur artist concept
What It Might Have Looked Like
In 1938, Lockheed began design studies for a new airliner with passenger sized between the company’s Model 18 Super Electra and the Douglas DC-4. The result was the Model 44 Excalibur. Originally proposed with twenty-one seats and a top speed of 241 mph (as shown here), discussions with Pan American Airways ultimately drove the design to carry forty passengers at 300 mph. Meanwhile, Transcontinental and Western Airlines (later TWA) entered discussions for a pressurized airliner that could fly transcontinental routes non-stop with up to forty passengers in seats or twenty in a sleeper configuration. Realizing this new airliner would be even more attractive to Pan Am, the Model 44 project was dropped. That new design, the Model 49, was the Constellation.

Source: http://www.codeonemagazine.com/gallery_slideshow.html?item_id=3865
Edit:
Another source: https://flic.kr/p/Sb3QcR
 

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Stargazer2006

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Splendid! By far the best picture of the Excalibur project I've ever seen.

Thumbs up to Lockheed Martin for preserving their heritage, not charging for screen-size pictures AND not covering every photo with strings of their annoying logos!!
 

blackkite

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Hi SM.95.
http://www.alieuomini.it/catalogo/dettaglio_catalogo/savoia_marchetti_sm,91.html
TecnicaCARATTERISTICHE tab
engines: Alfa Romeo 128 R.C. 18
power: HP. 860 to 1,800 m.
openings aerofoil: 34.28 m.
overall length: 22.24 m.
total height: 5.70 m.
wing area: m2 128.30
empty weight: kg. 12,800
maximum load weight: kg. 21,000
maximum speed: 400 km/h.
minimum speed: 130 km/h.
lifting time: 26 ' 46 '' at 5,000 m.
Service ceiling: 6,500 m.
range: km. 2,000
takeoff: 460 m.
landing: 480 m.
crew: 5 components
passengers: 18
Designer: Alessandro Marchetti
test pilot: William Algarotti
first flight prototype: n.c. 41001 in May 1943
location: Vergiata (Varese)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXNwKgU6rWM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoia-Marchetti_SM.95
Specifications (SM.95)
Data from World Encyclopedia of Civil Aircraft
General characteristics
Crew: 4-5
Capacity: 20-38 passengers
Length: 24.77 m (81 ft 3 in)
Wingspan: 34.28 m (112 ft 5¾ in)
Height: 5.25 m (17 ft 2½ in)
Wing area: 128.3 m² (1,381 ft²[10])
Empty weight: 13,310 kg (29,282 lb[10])
Loaded weight: 21,655 kg (47,641 lb[10])
Powerplant: 4 × Alfa Romeo 128 RC.18 radial engines, 634 kW (850 hp) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 361 km/h (195 kn, 224 mph[10])
Cruise speed: 315 km/h (170 knots, 196 mph[10])
Range: 2,000 km (1,080 nmi, 1,240 mi[10])
Service ceiling: 6,350 m[10] (20,830 ft)
 

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ACResearcher

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Dyno,

Can you please identify the source of that wonderful photo of the Excalibur mockup?

TIA

AlanG
 

Dynoman

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Its from the SDASM Collection, available on Flickr.
 

hesham

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The Lockheed Excalibur.

http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/periodici/PDF%20Riviste/Ala%20d'Italia/L'ALA%20D'ITALIA%201941%20011.pdf
 

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lleu

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Hello!

Excalibur (L-105, 112, 113) with pressurized cabin or not?
 

hesham

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lleu said:
Hello!

Excalibur (L-105, 112, 113) with pressurized cabin or not?
Welcome aboard Lleu,

and they were not.

Source AAHS Journal.
 

lleu

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Thanks!

Lockheed Constellation - From Excalibur to Starliner by Dominique Brefford
 

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hesham

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Excalibur 44 from Flickr
My dear Dynoman,

it was Lockheed L-144-14;

 

Dynoman

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Hesham, thank you. However, I was under the notion that the 44 had two vertical stabilizers and the L144 had three plus its fuselage was increased to accommodate twice as many passengers as the original design (21 to 40 pax). When Pan American Airways became a potential customer for the aircraft the interest in expanding the aircraft from the basic 44 design to the larger L144 occurred circa 1939. After WWII began Lockheed competed in the long range bomber program (resulting in their competitor Boeing's XB-29 design) submitting a design similar to their L144, known as the Lockheed XB-30.
 

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