Panzerschiff concept

[Tzoli]

Elektrik Motoren?

 

[alexi]

I can only assume that turbine variant was designed for to be cost effective, would be unusual for a long range "trade-destroyer" to having such short legs.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Elektrik Motoren?

That's my first thought, yes.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

I can only assume that turbine variant was designed for to be cost effective, would be unusual for a long range "trade-destroyer" to having such short legs.

With the advent of the V12Z 42/58 there should be no reason for steam turbine systems in long-range designs - or at least not a full steam system. Maybe there were machinery space size considerations, which I suppose would fall under cost-effectiveness.

 

[Tzoli]

Maybe an attempt to create a Turbo-Electric Drive? Though that was heavy but economical

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Maybe an attempt to create a Turbo-Electric Drive? Though that was heavy but economical

Given that electric motors are in the turbine rooms, I can't think of anything else. The one forward of the boiler rooms threw me off, but I suppose a dedicated room for generation ships' power should be included.

 

[Tzoli]

Likely auxiliary electric generators with diesel engines. Aren't the text tells anything more?

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Likely auxiliary electric generators with diesel engines. Aren't the text tells anything more?

Nothing much.

 

[40902nd]

While reading German Capital Ships of World War Two by M. J. Whitley, I saw reference to some interesting proposals for Panzerschiff C, before he was finalized into Admiral Graf Spee.

The first is for a Panzerschiff armed with 3x3 24cm guns in a AB-X configuration and a speed of approximately 30 kts.
The second is of an enlarged panzerschiff of between 15k and 18k tonnes, armed with 3x3 28cm guns.
The third is of a Panzerschiff armed with 4x2 20.3cm in a AB-XY configuration.

The first was put forth during Zenker's tenure, and the latter two after Raeder's appointment, following Zenker's resignation.

I was not aware of such interesting developments in the lead-up to Admiral Graf Spee, as I was under the impression that he was just a logically improvement upon the preceding two ships. Does anyone either have more information on these proposals or know of where I could find that information myself? I'd also be interested in if there were other proposals for Panzerschiff B before the design for Admiral Scheer was finalized.

I'm currently trying multiple angles to get information on Panzerschiff F, and I'll post what I dig up here to the forums.

 

[alexi]

I'm currently trying multiple angles to get information on Panzerschiff F

Panzerschiff F as envisioned by Raeder would displaced at 25,000 tons and armed with 30.5cm guns, just a couple next pages.

The first is for a Panzerschiff armed with 3x3 24cm guns in a AB-X configuration and a speed of approximately 30 kts.

Don't forget another variants with eight or nine 21cm guns, these proposals are only possible if not for the existance of Dunkerque.

 

[40902nd]

Don't forget another variants with eight or nine 21cm guns, these proposals are only possible if not for the existance of Dunkerque.

Were these proposals for B, or were they early C?

Also, I know Ansaldo prepared some Panzerschiffs for export in the form of UP90 and UP102, iirc.
I also know that the Secretary of the Navy asked for a design for a 6-gun 10-inch Cruiser, though I don't know the layout of, if it was even decided. That request is next on my list of archive requests, followed by the sketches of 8000t cruisers with 2x2 11"/50 and 12"/50. That is after the Navy War College's Reciprocal Cruiser, which I'll also post to the forums when found.

Does anyone else know of any other counties that wanted or designed Panzerschiff-esque ships of their own?

 

[ptdockyard]

I also know that the Secretary of the Navy asked for a design for a 6-gun 10-inch Cruiser, though I don't know the layout of, if it was even decided. That request is next on my list of archive requests, followed by the sketches of 8000t cruisers with 2x2 11"/50 and 12"/50. That is after the Navy War College's Reciprocal Cruiser, which I'll also post to the forums when found.

Oh man.....I'll be watching for these.....

 

[Tzoli]

Does anyone else know of any other counties that wanted or designed Panzerschiff-esque ships of their own?

If you mean Cruiser projects with larger calibre than 8", than there were a few:

The RN Deutchland hunters (Churchill's 9,2" designs) the DNC Export design for Greece (3x2 10")

The upgun proposal for Wichita or design based on Wichita, I think 3x1 or 2x2 12" by order of the president.

Japanese IJN wargame proposals for upgunning the Mogamis with 25cm guns likely 5x1

Spanish projects to use the guns of Scharnhorsts or the Espanas.

Yes a few Italian export designs for Romania and Sweden.

Might be some Admiral dreams for the Polish Navy (not sure)

Various Soviet projects like the Stalingrad preliminaries.

If I remember corretly the French Dunkerque pre-designs too contained such proposals

And of course the known and lesser known German designs

 

[40902nd]

I was talking more about ships that were more-or-less inspired by the Panzerschiff in form, rather than just in function. I know a lot of nations started developing Cruiser-Killers.

For instance, the Spanish had an armored cruiser design with 3x2 12" guns, which I personally won't consider a Panzerschiffe-style, but one that was most certainly influenced by it. The revised designed of the same ship that proposed 2x3 11" guns (1 each, fore and aft), which might have been taken from Gneisenau upon completion of his upgunning, though, I would.

If I had to codify it, I'd say ship in the 10,00-30,000 ton range with two turrets, fore and aft, with guns of greater than 8", designed in the 1930's or after (so as to exclude the USN's large scouts, which were obviously not influenced by ships that would be launched for another decade-and-a-half).

At the moment, I am limiting my research largely to Panzerschiffs (and their foreign copies) and the crazier USN Scouts we never saw. I do plan to open my research up to the rest of the Cruiser-Killers once one of these projects have concluded, as hiring researchers is expensive, so I can't afford to do as much as I would want, when I want.

 

[Tzoli]

Then the Italian and Spanish ones and the historical hypothetical Japanese Chichibu class.

 

[Dilandu]

For instance, the Spanish had an armored cruiser design with 3x2 12" guns, which I personally won't consider a Panzerschiffe-style, but one that was most certainly influenced by it. The revised designed of the same ship that proposed 2x3 11" guns (1 each, fore and aft), which might have been taken from Gneisenau upon completion of his upgunning, though, I would.

The first design was made to re-use the existing turrets from Espana-class dreadnoughts. The second was made under the idea of buying from Germany triple 280-mm turrets, removed from Gneisenau.