Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit

NMaude said:
I wonder if these two men are members of this board?
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@NMaude Not really following you here. Don and Tom were pilots/test directors who supported AF flight test ops. Tom was a Northrup guy and Don was a contractor type who maintained a dual B-2/F-16 qual, which I used when I needed an F-16 chase with a pilot from the squadron.
 
It's clearly was explained to you twice that they are not.
 
Scott Kenny said:
No, that question has not been explicitly answered.

Though I suspect that if they were mkelly would have introduced them.
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With the use of pseudo names here, not likely, unless they PM me or lined up the pseudo to a call sign. Also, I respect people's decision to maintain online line anonymity.
 
EmoBirb said:
So...less than 20 aircraft, very high profile aircraft, which don't fly too many actual high pressure combat missions and yet they manage to fuck up regardless? (and it's not the first time either)
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Yeah, 29 seconds from the first indication of a problem to emergency blow down, in hard IFR, still put it down on the captain's bars in parameters and manage to keep it on the runway to the very end. That's a F/U for sure. LOL, really, high pressure combat is determinate of EP execution in the soup, close to the ground. Great display of utter, complete ignorance, especially since they shot the approach, worked the EP and still put it down on the aim point in parameters all in the space of two minutes. The number of hours both pilots had was pretty impressive given how few years they had on the MDS.

Nothing was said about sim time, which is totally all about having the dual engine failure, combined with the fire, hydraulic failure and multiple other system failures, but, yeah right, you've executed a BOLDFACE in real life right? You know what and electrical fire smells like, or maybe a hydraulic fluid fire, or how it feels to dead stick an aircraft 20 miles because your engine is TU. The blown hydraulic lines and pressurization system IFE's were all stateside(non-combat), not to mention the hung stores, but I digress. Again, what's your first, second, hand experience?

Not the first time, so you've read/table topped the SIB from the Guam crash, right? Care to enlighten the forum? Oh wait, right, that's safety privileged, only the AIB is public, but please enlighten us, because of course it like such an obvious example of incompetency.

FWIW, the retired 509 MXG/CC is a colleague of mine, we may have talked about these matters...
 
I take it the aircraft in question can be salvaged/restored? Anything you can walk away from is a good landing............
 
mkellytx said:
but, yeah right, you've executed a BOLDFACE in real life right?
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Where did I say this? I don't blame the pilots, I don't even necessarily blame the people on the ground, I would personally blame the entire institution around these people.

Since the 2000s accidents have mounted with the B-2. One crashed, totally destroyed. Another had it's landing gear collapse. One caught in fire and had to undergo exoensiu, long term repairs. And then lastly we have the incident discussed here where the aircraft had to be written off.

You getting childishly upset and defensive doesn't change the fact that something is seemingly not going right with these bombers over the last 2 decades (compared to the period before after they were introduced). It's also terrible that the USAF is always presented with the choice of sinking eye watering sums of money to repair one of these boutique aircraft (several hundred millions) or write them off, greatly diminishing their capabilities to conduct deep strikes against critical targets anywhere in the world and weakening the air based leg of the nuclear triad.

I say it again, there are less than 20 B-2s flying anyway. Having issues mount over time and accidents increase in frequency which result in extremely expensive damage or loss of the aircraft should be a clear sign that something is either not going right with regards to maintenance and checks for the aircraft, or that these aircraft are simply past their "date of expiration" (which would be surprising, I can't imagine they're approaching the maximum of the intended flight hour per airframe).

Which is why I said the B-21 can't come soon enough. It's cheaper, it's newer and it will be more numerous. Accidents would most likely result in less expensive bills, as the aircraft and it's components would still be in production. And any loss wouldn't diminish the fleet size by such a large margin by percentage. And no matter how upset you get, the B-2 is a super high cost, high maintenance, low volume aircraft that is due to be replaced by a new bomber that's overall superior, as intended by Northrop Grumman who learned a lot from their B-2 design in operation (which is why I called it jokingly a technology demonstrator).
 
EmoBirb said:
mkellytx said:
but, yeah right, you've executed a BOLDFACE in real life right?
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Where did I say this? I don't blame the pilots, I don't even necessarily blame the people on the ground, I would personally blame the entire institution around these people.
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You didn't, the perspective was added since all three of the incidents I listed were emergencies I executed a boldface while flight testing an aircraft in combat. Additionally, I spent most of my career as an AF officer maintaining bombers or flight testing them. The second sentence is a far better, less inflammatory assessment. Since I lived it, I'll say it. The politicians and USAF/DOD senior leadership are to blame. Say whatever you will about the Superbug, but at least the Navy replaced their tired iron, the AF didn't.

Since the 2000s accidents have mounted with the B-2. One crashed, totally destroyed. Another had it's landing gear collapse. One caught in fire and had to undergo exoensiu, long term repairs. And then lastly we have the incident discussed here where the aircraft had to be written off.
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That's the nature of all aviation, the more the hours multiply, the more opportunities for the Swiss cheese to line up, then add tired iron. It's why us aviators have our rituals and remanence around the bar, because you can do everything right and still get killed. Three major incidents in three and a half decades, with two write offs and no fatalities is better performance than a lot of other small fleets.

You getting childishly upset and defensive doesn't change the fact that something is seemingly not going right with these bombers over the last 2 decades (compared to the period before after they were introduced). It's also terrible that the USAF is always presented with the choice of sinking eye watering sums of money to repair one of these boutique aircraft (several hundred millions) or write them off, greatly diminishing their capabilities to conduct deep strikes against critical targets anywhere in the world and weakening the air based leg of the nuclear triad.

I say it again, there are less than 20 B-2s flying anyway. Having issues mount over time and accidents increase in frequency which result in extremely expensive damage or loss of the aircraft should be a clear sign that something is either not going right with regards to maintenance and checks for the aircraft, or that these aircraft are simply past their "date of expiration" (which would be surprising, I can't imagine they're approaching the maximum of the intended flight hour per airframe).

Which is why I said the B-21 can't come soon enough. It's cheaper, it's newer and it will be more numerous. Accidents would most likely result in less expensive bills, as the aircraft and it's components would still be in production. And any loss wouldn't diminish the fleet size by such a large margin by percentage. And no matter how upset you get, the B-2 is a super high cost, high maintenance, low volume aircraft that is due to be replaced by a new bomber that's overall superior, as intended by Northrop Grumman who learned a lot from their B-2 design in operation (which is why I called it jokingly a technology demonstrator).
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Projection is a terrible thing, but you did at least clarify your original remarks, so credit due. The superior airmanship of that crew preserved a source of spare parts; lesser airmen could have ran the hydraulics dry and ejected or ground looped and died. The decision not to repair isn't that surprising since that MDS's replacement is not too far away. That repair cost pays for half of a new Raider.
 
mkellytx said:
Once again TWZ strikes. It's not like the Bone and BUFF guys didn't routinely make a joke about that at least once a week 20 years ago in the old squadron... Better late than never
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Pics or it didn't happen. I hear military pilots sometimes exhibit a shall we say certain braggadocio.
 
martinbayer said:
Pics or it didn't happen. I hear military pilots sometimes exhibit a shall we say certain braggadocio.
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10% truth, it was said in a roll call. Has to be true ;)

Edit: The next post has the evidence at the 42 min mark.
 
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what_is_that said:
View: https://youtu.be/5-YMKE9NRDg?t=2473


I watched this video a week or two ago. Great info in some of the talks on this channel.
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Can't recommend this one highly enough. Both gentlemen are outstanding people, and it was a pleasure to get to work with both. I always liked getting to work on a mission with Don as he would also chase in Vipers.
 
mkellytx said:
Can't recommend this one highly enough. Both gentlemen are outstanding people, and it was a pleasure to get to work with both. I always liked getting to work on a mission with Don as he would also chase in Vipers.
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mkellytx, you must be former B-2 CTF as well?
 
https://twitter.com/x/status/1978246545003708625
View: https://x.com/CBSEveningNews/status/1978246545003708625
https://www.jpost.com/defense-and-tech/article-870388
In fact we just ordered 28 more of them. A little updated version. We ordered a whole pile of them."

Speaking at a press conference in August at the White House, Trump said that the US had ordered a “new and enhanced” version of the B-2. While he did not expand on his comment, he said that the upgraded aircraft was “similar but actually quite different.”
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NMaude said:
Another sign of Trump's increasingly blatant senility.
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An easy typo for anyone to make. There are lots of far more complex and damning things, like “war torn Portland”, over run with unicyclists and insidious farm stands, but simply leaving out the “1” in B-21 or just swapping one flying wing for another in your mind is pretty easy for any non aviation enthusiast to do.

There are five lots of LRIP aircraft I think totaling 20 aircraft - would the 28 be the first full rate production aircraft lot(s) perhaps?

EDIT: actually that is more of a B-21 thread question; sorry.
 
Josh_TN said:
An easy typo for anyone to make. There are lots of far more complex and damning things, like “war torn Portland”, over run with unicyclists and insidious farm stands, but simply leaving out the “1” in B-21 or just swapping one flying wing for another in your mind is pretty easy for any non aviation enthusiast to do.

There are five lots of LRIP aircraft I think totaling 20 aircraft - would the 28 be the first full rate production aircraft lot(s) perhaps?

EDIT: actually that is more of a B-21 thread question; sorry.
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Another bucket of wings, I like it. I know NG redesigned the aft deck of the 21 to prevent the aft deck thermal issues we had on the B-2, I don't want the extra crispy recipe.
 
It is possible though that it is actually a new B-2 production batch, built to at least partly fill the capability gaps that will be left even if the B-21 makes it into full service in the near future.
 
I suppose that it is easy for someone like Trump to get the B-2 mixed up with the B-21 especially since both were designed and built by Northrop Grumman. Though it is good to see that more B-21s are getting ordered.
 
Grey Havoc said:
It is possible though that it is actually a new B-2 production batch, built to at least partly fill the capability gaps that will be left even if the B-21 makes it into full service in the near future.
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Highly doubtful, the production of the B-2 ended such a long time ago. Not only has all the tooling been disassembled and probably destroyed, I would go as far as saying that many of companies that produced and supplied individual components are probably long gone my now, lol.
 
The last Raptor was built circa 2010/2011 and that was not a program that could be resuscitated.

To put this in perspective 2011 is roughly the midpoint between the assembly of the last Spirt and Raiders first flight.

Ain’t no way they’re making more B-2s.
 
EmoBirb said:
Highly doubtful, the production of the B-2 ended such a long time ago. Not only has all the tooling been disassembled and probably destroyed, I would go as far as saying that many of companies that produced and supplied individual components are probably long gone my now, lol.
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I mean, there should be a law that as long as a vehicle is still in service the tooling must be retained. Possibly with a tax break.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I mean, there should be a law that as long as a vehicle is still in service the tooling must be retained. Possibly with a tax break.
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It would be impractical to restart production of obsolete components, assuming it was even possible. It probably would also be all but impossible to reaquire the human capital of a major program. And the end result would generally be an obsolescent aircraft even if you could.
 

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