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McDonnell-Douglas Hypersonic projects from the 60s and 70s

hesham

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Hi,

the McDonnell-Douglas 8 mach hypersonic model of 1972.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19720015247_1972015247.pdf
 

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XP67_Moonbat

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I think that might be a wind tunnel model of a proposed Shuttle first stage.

Moonbat
 

archipeppe

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XP67_Moonbat said:
Well good to see Mr Rose has clear that up. I'll have to get a future edition.

For today I give you this. Enjoy!

DISCLAIMER: The dimensions on the TAV come from the webarchive of Marc Lindroos's old page. Starting with that as reference, I approximated the dimensions for Toss-Back Booster. As we've so far not seen solid unclassified info on the Toss-Back, I made a guess. Input from the forum is always welcome.

Moonbat
Really good!!
Is the first time I see something rather dimensioned about TAV.
 

mz

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HyperTech said:
You have mixed and matched several different projects from 1956 to 1972. NOTE None of the McDonnell Aircraft Engineering or McDonnell Missile Engineering Divisions ever designed a hypersonic wing-body glider except as a strawman to destroy. Bill Sweetman did NOT take the XLR-129 powered glider that is from the top of a file cabinet at McDonnell St. Louis, circa 1958. I'll have to make a note of the different pictures and tell you what they are. Included in your pictures are a USAF Mach 6 rocket accelerated SLBM interceptor launched from a C-5 circa 1974, a USAF Mach 4.5 turboramjet interceptor circa 1972, a USAF Mach 6 turboramjet interceptor circa 1972, a XLR-129 powered hypersonic glider with a 25,000 nautical mile glide range circa 1958 and others. If I can ever figure out how to paste pictures can give you a snapshot of the best hypersonic design team from 1956 to 1972, with Lockheed as a very close competitor.
I hope you can post, this is extremely interesting!
The internet and press is full of circulating myths, it would be great if someone with real knowledge was able to put them to rest.
 

hesham

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XP67_Moonbat said:
I think that might be a wind tunnel model of a proposed Shuttle first stage.

Moonbat
Oh sorry,

you are right my dear XP67_Moonbat,I will post the it to US Shuttle projects topic.
 

Meteorit

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So was the MDC "Toss-Back" part of the TAV studies?

Another note on the 1958 hypersonic glide vehicle: I remember there was some discussion sometime somewhere of the strange "thing" on the upper front fuselage, which has also been reproduced on Moonbat's images. IIRC someone wondered if it was maybe an inlet or what. Mark's painting shows what looks like a cockpit on about the same location, so the oddness on the model might be related to it. It even makes me think the "cockpit part" has fallen off the scale model at some point over the years.
 

XP67_Moonbat

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Good question, man. I was wondering the same thing about the Toss-Back myself. I think the only ones on here who would know for sure are Prof. Czysz and AIRROCKET who posted the Toss-Back stuff on here a while back.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4024.75.html

Also, I still remember the discussion on here about the "cockpit" part.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,382.0.html

I did bring it up because I was always curious about that too.
 

KJ_Lesnick

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The GIUK Interceptor, was there ever any mention of what kind of engines were to power it?
 

shockonlip

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KJ_Lesnick said:
The GIUK Interceptor, was there ever any mention of what kind of engines were to power it?
There is another thread on some of these concepts:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5836.msg47268.html#msg47268
 

HyperTech

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The pictures are on a file cabinent just outside of an office. Although taken not too laong ago, the model originated in the 1958 to 1963 time frame. At that time ther was NO DARPA it was ARPA. And GD or no other company was involved except P&W. Attached is a small scale model from that period.
 

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flateric

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What a beauty from any angle! Thank you for sharing, HyperMan!
 

Orionblamblam

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With the better rez photos, it looks pretty certain that that is a recon bird of some kind... three optical windows protected by a ramp. Perhaps related to the BoMi/RoBo series or the WS118P, all of which called for hypersonic, suborbital recon systems that would eb virtually indistinguishable from the modrn CAV concept.
 

XP67_Moonbat

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Outstanding picture and many thanks for sharing it with us, HyperTech! Now my question is how Bill Sweetman, noted author, mistook McDonnell's 1958 hypersonic design as somebody else's handiwork. nevertheless, it's a good design, in any era.

Moonbat

PS- I soooo want that model. Very nice
 

LowObservable

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Did Sweetman ever describe it as a GD design?
 

flateric

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yes, did he in fact?
 

XP67_Moonbat

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Yeah he did. Mark Wade's site says so: http://www.astronautix.com/craft/hgv.htm .

Wade's site is a good reference so I'm not inclined to think that he droppped the ball on this one.

Andreas Parsch's website even said the same thing until Professor Czysz recently said other otherwise on here.

Andreas has since corrected this and the model picture is no longer on there. Take a look: http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/hgv.html

So here's what I'm wondering....

Was Bill Sweetman fed a line of s**t as disinformation back in '87 at the AFA convention? Or was the 1958 model set out just as a somehow handy example to give Sweetman a general idea of how the otherwise black HGV would look like?

Also, I'm seeing GD/Convair as the manufacturer on one site and Lockheed as another one.

Either way something's off.

Moonbat
 

Andreas Parsch

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XP67_Moonbat said:
Andreas Parsch's website even said the same thing ...
... because Bill Sweetman, and Mark Wade's Encyclopaedia Astronautica, were my only reference sources for HGV ;).
 

XP67_Moonbat

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It's all good. Nobody coulda known. Professor Cszyz cleared up a lot. But with new answers come new questions.
 

LowObservable

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"Many thanks to Bill Sweetman for pointing out the existence of this project."

Does not say that Sweetman ID'd the model as being GD or from AFA. And it fairly clearly is not at AFA.
 

antigravite

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Re: McDonnell-Douglas Hypersonic projects from the 60s and 70s ---> early 1990s

Does anybody know if there was a relation between this old 1950's era model presented at AFA and the so-called Hypersonic Glide Vehicle (HGV) "project" which occasionnaly surfaced as a program distinct from NASP. I have always been confused by how these projects BGV, HGV, Have Space (?) were related.

See below for more. (...) indicates text cut for clarity.

- - - - - - - -

SBIR RFP sampled and tracked back from 1990:

AF90-179 : RFP (extract) : "ICBM Penetration Aid Technologies"
OBJECTIVE: Develop hardware and analysis capabilities to support penetration aid technologies.
DESCRIPTION:
a. Develop an ablative pyrotechnic heat shield material to enhance visible and IR optical signatures. (...)
b. Develop new methodologies for RCS, IR and visible optical wake/plume signature prediction capability. (...)
c. Develop new methodologies for RCS prediction of bodies with protuberances and electrically non-homogenous materials. Improvements and upgrades on state-of-the-art computer codes in the areas of robustness, versatility, speed, and accuracy are expected. The offerers are expected to be familiar with the BSD mission and generally the capabilities of large ABM radars. Current specific treat information will be available after contract award. The codes developed should be applicable to both conical ballistic RVs and shaped bodies such as Maneuvering Reentry Vehicles (MARVs) and Hypersonic Glide Vehicles (HGVs).
d. Develop new methodologies for incorporating RF antennas into RVs and penetration aids. (...)

AF90-144 : GRANT
REHN CORP
(...)
Title: RETRODIRECTIVE FLIGHT TEST ARTICLE INSTRUMENTATION ANTENNA
Topic #: AF90-144 Office: SAMTO/Wi3MC ID #: 39750
A FAMILY OF ELECTRONICALLYSTEERED CIRCULAR PHASED ARRAY ANTENNAS ARE CONFIGURED FOR USE
ON SPINNING RE-ENTRY VEHICLES (RV). THIS TECHNIQUE ALLOWS RVs FROM SIX INCHES TO TEN FEET
DIAMETER TO ACHIEVE GREATLY INCREASED PERFORMANCE COMPARED TO PRESENT SYSTEMS:
CONTINUOUS RANGE SAFETY ACHIEVED THROUGHOUT RV FLIGHT; SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER DATA RATES
FROM IMPROVED DATA MONITORING; REQUIRED SPATIAL COVERAGE WITH SIMPLE BEAM-POINTING
MECHANISMS. A NOVEL RF COMPUTATION CIRCUIT ALLOWS A LOW SIDELOBE RADIATION PATTERN TO
BE GENERATED AND DE-SPUN SUCH THAT THE ARRAY HIGH GAIN BEAM IS ALWAYS POINTING AT A DATA
COLLECTION STATION. THIS TECHNIQUE, PROVEN ON THE NAVY'S AEGIS IFF SYSTEM, IS ADAPTED FOR
ENHANCEMENT OF RV FLIGHT TESTS. ALSO CONSIDERED IS THE UTILIZATION OF TDRS AS THE DATA
COLLECTION STATION IN ORDER TO PROVIDE CONTINUOUS LINE-OF-SIGHT COMMUNICATION WITH THE RV.
SUITABILITY OF CIRCULAR PHASED ARRAYS TO ENHANCE THE DATA COLLECTION FROM THE PLANNED
NATIONAL AEROSPACE PLANE (NASP) AND THE HYPERSONIC GLIDE VEHICLE (HGV) IS ASSESSED.
 

flateric

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ONCE MORE
THIS MDC CRAFT WAS NOT PRESENTED AT AFA CONFERENCE
ALL PHOTOS WERE MADE AT MCDONELL DOUGLAS FILE CABINET MANY YEARS BEFORE
 

XP67_Moonbat

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I concur. An esteemed fellow member has already established this fact us.
 

Dynoman

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G. Daniel Brewers "Hydrogen Aircraft Technology" page 255 describes the Manned Hypersonic Test Vehicle (MHTV) that proceeded design work on the MHCV. This aircraft appears to have been designed/developed as a scramjet powered aircraft, with an initial variant incorporating an Aerojet LR-87 for early development flights. It was to be air launched from a B-52 and obtain Mach 6.

It has the same name as the title of Paul Czysz charts at the beginning of the thread.

The entry can be found at Google-books below:

http://books.google.com/books?id=hf-iyU2R7eIC&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=hypersonics+brewer&source=bl&ots=lLgU3qEJ-Z&sig=a0CY72xgDopCc_SlAU0duoBgBRg&hl=en&ei=ugexSpuABZCStgfU76iuCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=mhtv&f=false
 

Meteorit

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Another image of the Mach 12 HSVS from Paul Czysz's presentation (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,382.msg90874.html#msg90874). Have I understood correctly this is a "cruiser" and the rocket engines are for takeoff help and not for orbital capacity?
 

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airrocket

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Hi Meteorit,

I believe the vehicle you have pictured has the two XLR motors. Just got back from UK after being stranded there for the last week. If no one else replies with specifics on this soon I will look it up later this week or ask P.C. directly. If memory serves me correct this may have been rocket only... either way rocket only is always used as accelerators or above M12 with airbreathers in mid super to hyper range. I've been focused on the FDL-7 based SBW deep cooled rocket (DuPont) designs recently will need a memory refresher to verify your cruise concept.
 

robunos

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Found on page 96 of the document linked to at the link below :-

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730005251_1973005251.pdf

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4636.msg125200.html#msg125200

An image of the XLR129, [captioned XRL129,] with an SSME for comparison...


cheers,
Robin.
 

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quellish

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robunos said:
An image of the XLR129, [captioned XRL129,] with an SSME for comparison...


cheers,
Robin.
Aren't those reversed?
 

robunos

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I have no idea.......... :-[

I just grabbed the page image from the PDF referred to...


cheers,
Robin.
 

quellish

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robunos said:
I have no idea.......... :-[

I just grabbed the page image from the PDF referred to...


cheers,
Robin.
I think the larger one is the 129, and the smaller is the SSME - the captions seem to be reversed.
 

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2. The Tuesday, Jan. 17, 2012 7-8:30 PM PST (10-11:30 PM EST, 9-10:30 PM CST) program welcomes DR. PAUL CZYSZ on advanced engineering, hypersonics and more.
Emeritus Professor, Retired Oliver L. Parks Endowed Chair, Department Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering, Parks College of Engineering and Aviation, Saint Louis University. B.S. Aeronautical Engineering; Parks College of St. Louis University President of HyperTech Concepts LLC, Technology Group International, LLC and Energy Directions, a sole proprietorship. On the Board of Directory, Ice Management Systems, Inc., Temecula, California and the In-Space Operations Corporation, Arlington, Virginia. Head of the Wind Tunnel Technology Group, Gasdynamics Laboratory at MDC. There were numerous innovations in hypersonic testing techniques were pioneered by the group, including a Mach 10 to 16 contoured, parallel flow nozzle, modifications that increased usable run time fivefold, a thermal mapping system. 1968 he became the Deputy Study Manager for the NASA sponsored Hypersonic Research Facility Study (HYFAC), that determined the research requirements and facilities needed to accomplish the research necessary to lead to Mach 12 operational systems. Manager of the Computer Aided Design Engineering (CADE). These multi-technology aircraft sizing programs were tools used by advanced design. New approaches to apply the techniques to incomplete data sets. Manager of an Advanced Concepts Group. That group explored aircraft concepts with increased operational spectrums and new configurations. Lead the effort to develop the evaluation methods that could determine the payoffs for integrating advanced technology into combat aircraft. Although MCAIR was not successful in winning this effort, the AFTI-15 configuration eventually flew in 1989 as the Advanced STOL Demonstrator. Between 1978 and 1983 was on special assignment with a group that was to initiate new fighter technologies. Study Manager, Advanced Manned AeroSpace Systems. This organization was to restart the MDC manned spacecraft effort. That team won participation in Copper Canyon and the National AeroSpace Plane (NASP) regaining that position. In 1985 Mr. Czysz became the Principal Scientist of the NASP program. In 1985 was selected as a MDC Fellows. Retired from MDC on 21 May 91.​
Listeners can talk to Dr. Paul Czysz or the host using toll free 1 (866) 687-7223, by sending e-mail during the program using drspace@thespaceshow.com, thespaceshow@gmail.com, or dmlivings@yahoo.com. To use Skype from your computer with a headset, the I. D. is thespaceshow.​
I did not listen to this broadcast, but plan to download it from the archive located at www.thespaceshow.com
 

flateric

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we can be proud by fact that Dr. Paul Czysz is Secret Projects Forum member
 

jjnodice

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Unfortunately, the program with Dr. Czysz did not air. The host of the show has attempted to contact him and has not heard back. Hopefully all is well.
 

flateric

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emailed him too. hope everything is OK with him
 

jjnodice

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If you hear back, send the host an email letting him know (in the program listing I posted). It is rare for him to have a guest be unresponsive, so he is concerned.
 

flateric

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no answer yet...(
 

flateric

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Got the answer from Prof. Czysz. Due to some serious reasons I don't feel free to share publicly Paul won't be available
for interview till second week of February at the best.

All we should wish him good health.
 

Stargazer2006

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McDonnell Douglas Model 125A is described as an "all-weather reconnaissance airplane project" of 1957.

I was wondering if maybe the attached recce project by McAir could be just that.
 

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sferrin

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quellish said:
shockonlip said:
Sadly, no. The configuration I'm looking for is nearly identical to the McD concept in this thread, but has a canopy with circular portholes like SpaceShipOne/WhiteKnight. In place of the centerline ramjet is the RASCAL ascent rocket.
This one?

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2561.msg123213.html#msg123213
 
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