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McDonnell-Douglas Model 265 AFTI project

overscan (PaulMM)

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I have this picture, of McDonnell-Douglas' Model 265, which is labelled "AFTI". Did McDonnell-Douglas submit Model 265 to the AFTI program?
 

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Deino

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overscan said:
I have this picture, of McDonnell-Douglas' Model 265, which is labelled "AFTI". Did McDonnell-Douglas submit Model 265 to the AFTI program?

As I know YES ... I was searching on my harddrive and this is all I found so far, sometimes saved under a wrong designation ... but here it is:

This is from a German magazine "Flug Revue" (don't know the issue) and it states that McDD suggested two designs under the Model 265 disignation. One often labeled mod. 265-1 and another design called mod. 265-2.

I found several of both - but mostly the 265-1 !
 

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Sundog

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McDonnells Submission three view.
 

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Archibald

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The Douglas 265 has become symbol of this forum. who make the 3-d rendering of this lovely project ?
 

Sundog

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Hi Archibald,
The rendering on the site appears to be just a colorized version of this image that I assume was originally made by the artists at McDonnel Douglas (it's shown on the first page of this thread)
index.php
 

Archibald

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That's nice! I've already noticed that both pictures looked similar... I thought it was 3-D rendering (this mean that it is very well done ;))

Just a question : this plane would have been build instead of the modified
F-16 ?
 

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overscan said:
I have this picture, of McDonnell-Douglas' Model 265, which is labelled "AFTI". Did McDonnell-Douglas submit Model 265 to the AFTI program?

Getting back to AFTI, where can I find more info on the McDonnell-Douglas Model 265. I did a search and just came back to this thread (probably doing it wrong). It looks pretty but I don't understand it at all. I read somewhere it was a VSTOL project, how did that work? And what's with the lack of tail surfaces? I know it's got those little chin fins (like the F-16A AFTI) and a sort of beaver tail but doesn't look like an improvement to me, especially if it had an all moving wing like the similar Rockwell concept. Does the '265' have an all moving wing too? etc, etc.
Cheers, Woody
 

Matej

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I think that you are searching right, in this thread is collected information about Model 265. I dont know if you saw the internal 3 view and a short description posted in reply no. 22 by Sundog. If not, this can help.
 

Antonio

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Supersonic Fighter Development. Roy Braybrook. Ed Haynes. 1987 ISBN 0-85429-582-8

Anyone can identify the weapons in ths drawing?

Thanks,

Antonio
 

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richard

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Hello

It's the McDonnel Douglas AMDA project ,1973 .
AMDA is for advanced manoeuvring demonstrator aircraft .

Cheers

Richard
 

Sundog

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According to our info here it was known as the McDonnell Douglas AFTI proposal.
 

fightingirish

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I see a picture of that project nearly every day! ;):)
 
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overscan (PaulMM)

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Pictures from Ebay added. Project was also called VLF - Vectored Lift Fighter.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Interesting report.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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It is now confirmed that the Model 265 (Vectored Lift Fighter) formed part of the agile fighter joint studies between McDonnell-Douglas and MBB. Around 1978, the two companies worked together on new fighter technologies for AFTI and TKF-90 respectively and a report was produced that year which examined the McDD VLF and the early MBB TKF-90 canard delta configuration with a view to producing a demonstrator - either a 19,000lb design with twin F404 or RB.199 engines or a 12,000lb design with twin J85s. Both the MBB and McDD designs are fitted with 3d thrust vectoring nozzles.
 

Mark Nankivil

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To go with Paul's comments, here are scans of drawings in two different reports I've found over at the Greater St. Louis Aviation Museum. The first one is "VLF Battlefield Fighter Development Plan" dated 15 November 1976.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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Mark Nankivil

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The other report is titled "PIKT - Program to Investigate Key Technologies, Characterization of a Collaborative Fighter Technology/Experimental Aircraft Development Program for the United States and Federal Republic of Germany" dated 20 July 1978.

Question - is this the program (or a spinoff) which led to the X-31?

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Not directly, for MBB it was part of their TKF-90 work which fed into the Eurofighter. However MBB's interest in thrust vectoring and post-stall continued and fed into the later program with Rockwell on the X-31.
 

Mark Nankivil

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Hi Nugo -

I'll share everything I find over there and scan. The museum is struggling and previous ups and downs of the museum have seen some of the collection "disappear" into the possession of others. Still, there's quite a bit there and I am able to access and scan it all and have taken on the task of cataloging and indexing it too. I am presently scanning about 40 different 9"x11" photos of various advanced concepts artwork and many of them or totally new to me. consequently, it looks like I will be posting some images in the very near future for everyone to take a crack at and see what Model or concept they are meant to represent. Stay tuned....

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

HyperTech

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Model 265 was a variable incidence wing concept invented by Don Scheller of McDonnell Aircraft St. Louis. It predated the USAF AFTI program by several years. The USAF rejected the model 265 (there were perhaps 25 or so different configuration integrations) and the AFTI project resulted. MDC St. Louis proposed the AFTI-15, a variable incidence F-15. The final configuration was a three surface F-15 the eventually became the integrated aero-propulsion control demonstrator. The only as to get pilots to fly the variable incidence wing aircraft would have been to black out the canopy and fly by instruments with synthetic vision.
 

Mark Nankivil

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Greetings All -

Here's some McAir artwork to go along with the Vectored Lift Fighter concept....

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Seems a single engine design using the same basic concept. Scan by Mark Nankivil.
 

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HyperTech

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overscan said:
Pictures from Ebay added. Project was also called VLF - Vectored Lift Fighter.
This was a transonic demonstrator aircraft proposed to demonstrate the basic principles of the vectored incidence wing with the fuselage beavertail control surface for trim. the fundamental concept was that the fuselage could be aimed about plus or minus 15 degrees without changing the flight path angle or the fuselage could remain on track while the wings angle of attack was increased to maintain track. The real sticking point came in ground attack when the flight path was level and the nose pitched down to maintain track on the target. Pilots have only the fuselage angle to estimate flight path so they IMMEDIATELY broke of the attack as they assumed they were flying at the ground not level. There were full scale operationally sized supersonic configurations as well as transonic concepts. It was a really unique concept that went against all of the status quo thinkers and macho pilots who did not need automatics.
 

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overscan said:
It is now confirmed that the Model 265 (Vectored Lift Fighter) formed part of the agile fighter joint studies between McDonnell-Douglas and MBB. Around 1978, the two companies worked together on new fighter technologies for AFTI and TKF-90 respectively and a report was produced that year which examined the McDD VLF and the early MBB TKF-90 canard delta configuration with a view to producing a demonstrator - either a 19,000lb design with twin F404 or RB.199 engines or a 12,000lb design with twin J85s. Both the MBB and McDD designs are fitted with 3d thrust vectoring nozzles.
A German team headed by Wolfgang Herbst was hired to assist in a STOL fighter competition that stayed on to develop the CADE Computer Aided Design Evaluation concept. Wolfgang was a close in maneuvering combat advocate with high angle of attack, thrust supported, off angle shots. When the team returned to Germany he concentrated on high angle of attack, slow maneuvering combat. On result was the Rockwell X-31 and the configuration of the Eurofighter. To my knowledge he never advocated the VLF concept
 

HyperTech

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Archibald said:
The Douglas 265 has become symbol of this forum. who make the 3-d rendering of this lovely project ?
Most of these isometric renderings were hand drawn by a single individual with an uncanny skill to look at a 3-view and sketch the result free hand. He unfortunately had a problem that after a long number of years made his employment difficult and so there was no one ever to replace him except unemotional computer graphics.
 

HyperTech

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Woody said:
overscan said:
I have this picture, of McDonnell-Douglas' Model 265, which is labelled "AFTI". Did McDonnell-Douglas submit Model 265 to the AFTI program?

Getting back to AFTI, where can I find more info on the McDonnell-Douglas Model 265. I did a search and just came back to this thread (probably doing it wrong). It looks pretty but I don't understand it at all. I read somewhere it was a VSTOL project, how did that work? And what's with the lack of tail surfaces? I know it's got those little chin fins (like the F-16A AFTI) and a sort of beaver tail but doesn't look like an improvement to me, especially if it had an all moving wing like the similar Rockwell concept. Does the '265' have an all moving wing too? etc, etc.

Cheers, Woody


Sorry guys, these concepts predated your references by over a decade. It is they who copied us!!!!
 

HyperTech

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To all:

It is MDC, McDonnell Douglas Corporation, or McAir McDonnell Aircraft Company NOT McDD. The later was a real sore point with Sandy.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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According to the report, Herbst was in charge of the MBB TKF-90 work and was hence jointly responsible for the PIKT study which was investigating key technologies for what the report dubs "NATO-90". MBB's team contributed their TKF-90 work, MDC their Model 265 work.

Of course, Herbst was no stranger to MDC having worked there on the FX (F-15) program from 1966-1970.
 

Mark Nankivil

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Thanks for that insight Hypertech - I'll be sure NOT to reference it that way in the future.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Model 265 patent:


Credited to Donald Scheller and William Leidy.
 

Mark Nankivil

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Good Day All -

I found some more artwork over at the Greater St. Louis Air & Space Museum that is worth sharing.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Is that a GAU-8 in the wing root or something even larger calibre? And on the tandem cockpit design it looks like the gun might be movable?
 

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Looks like a variable incidence wing to me, allowing the fuselage with the gun to be
pointed downwards, while the aircraft is still in level flight.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Indeed, it is the same aerodynamic layout as the Vectored Lift Fighter, Model 265. However in the tandem cockpit pic the gun barrel seems to be away from the fuselage.
 

Abraham Gubler

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overscan said:
Cool! Seems to be a two seat close air support design using Model 265 aerodynamics.

It’s a quirky looker and that big flat belly and offset intakes could make for an easy evolution into a low RCS strike aircraft. The side by side appears to have a FLIR/LD ball under the fuselage which would also enable PGM use for battlefield air interdiction roles. Looks big enough for plenty of fuel for flying 2,000 NM BAI missions. Combining CAS and BAI always made sense to me as it allows you to swing the fleet in accordance with the progress of the campaign.

I'm not sure about the gun being a GAU-8 as this is a pretty wide weapon. Certainly has a hell of a muzzle device and could be a Oerlikon KCB or a GAU-13 30mm. If the tandem seat mount is trainable it would only have a limited train like on the HOKUM but this is still very significant for ground attack as it considerably increases accuracy and allows for level flight strafing for those long columns of enemy trucks...
 

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