• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Kyushu J7W1 Shinden/J7W2 Shinden-kai

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,235
Reaction score
450
Maybe it's just my fantasy, but I can't help thinking that a contra-rotating version of the Shiden with good engines would have been a formidable opponent to the Americans!!
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Hi! We can find some Shinden-kai models or drawings in Internet site.
This is one model. But it's not necessary to have two types of air intake.
Original Shinden have two types of air intake. One is for engine cooling. Another one is for supercharger.
But Shinden-kai needs only one type of air intake for jet engine.
http://www9.plala.or.jp/fukugiya/72-081-shinden-jet.htm
 

Attachments

  • Shinden-kai model.jpg
    Shinden-kai model.jpg
    19.3 KB · Views: 472
  • drawing.gif
    drawing.gif
    28.6 KB · Views: 495

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
I think these models have rather proper shape air intake.
Shinden-kai was planned to have Ne-130 jet engine.(Thrust : 900kg, equal to about 3000hp)
 

Attachments

  • Shinden kai.jpg
    Shinden kai.jpg
    27.3 KB · Views: 516
  • IMG_3429.jpg
    IMG_3429.jpg
    58.3 KB · Views: 510
  • sindenkai.jpg
    sindenkai.jpg
    33.5 KB · Views: 449
  • sindenkai1.jpg
    sindenkai1.jpg
    68.2 KB · Views: 87
  • sindenkai2.jpg
    sindenkai2.jpg
    68.7 KB · Views: 95

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Many thanks Justo. Excellent! :)
I want to see front view. How about adding air intake boundary layer fence? Or how about bottom drawing's intake shape.
 

Attachments

  • Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star.jpg
    Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star.jpg
    185 KB · Views: 92
  • SAAB32-01.jpg
    SAAB32-01.jpg
    65.4 KB · Views: 76
  • Hunter-3.jpg
    Hunter-3.jpg
    17.8 KB · Views: 49
  • AIR_INTAKE_SHAPE.jpg
    AIR_INTAKE_SHAPE.jpg
    32.6 KB · Views: 51

borovik

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
790
Reaction score
102
An artistе impression (from the well-known firm))
/ very limited edition model series / :)
 

Attachments

  • ????????240.jpg
    ????????240.jpg
    559.9 KB · Views: 136

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,719
Reaction score
498
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
Speculative painting of Kyushu J7W2 Shinden-kai by Kow Yokoyama for Hasegawa model kit.

Source:
http://fighters.forumactif.com/t35896p15-shinden-1-48-fini
 

Attachments

  • has_je10.jpg
    has_je10.jpg
    205.6 KB · Views: 147

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Hi! NE-130 engine. Sorry for low quality.
Diameter : 850mm, Length : 3850mm, Weight : 900kg, Manufacturer : Ishikawajima Shibaura turbine.
 

Attachments

  • Ne-130 ENGINE.jpg
    Ne-130 ENGINE.jpg
    61.2 KB · Views: 317

Justo Miranda

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
4,211
Reaction score
1,850
In my opinion no fences, please see Ohka and Ne-20 comparative stuff
 

Attachments

  • ñ.jpg
    ñ.jpg
    205.6 KB · Views: 308
  • ñ 001.jpg
    ñ 001.jpg
    131.9 KB · Views: 337
  • ñ 002.jpg
    ñ 002.jpg
    90.4 KB · Views: 293
  • ñ 003.jpg
    ñ 003.jpg
    98.5 KB · Views: 268
  • ñ 004.jpg
    ñ 004.jpg
    278.7 KB · Views: 100

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Thanks Justo. Super!! ;)
Japanese technology was rather low level at the day. ;D
 

Taranov

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jan 23, 2011
Messages
119
Reaction score
9
::)
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Thanks another opinion. Splendid drawing. :D
Engine : Ishikawa Ne-440??
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Officially there are no jet powered Shinden drawing. Name of Shinden-kai is not official,too.
Kyushu Hikoki did not start jet powered Shinden design until the end of the war.
Engineer of Kyushu hikoki(Kunitake Kiyohara, section submanager of No.1 design section of Kyushu Hikoki) said so.
But it's true that the IJN ordered Kyushu Hikoki to design Shinden considering future turbo jet engine installation.
Engine was Ne-130, thrust 900kg, estimated jet powered Shinden's maximum speed with Ne-130 engine was 420kt(780km/h).
The IJN planned that jet powered Shinden use JATO when take off.
Shinden had laminar flow wing.(Maximum thickness located 45% wing chord.)
Sourec : Aireview magazine, extra number, Unknown military aircraft development(Vol.1/2) page 51, March 1999, ISBN4-87357-049-2 C9453
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Shinden's engine had 18 exhaust nozzles.
4 nozzles exhaust gas were used for thrust.(Located upper part of the engine.)
8 nozzles exhaust gas were used for ejector(jet pump) which take oil cooler cooling air. (Located middle part of the engine.)
6 nozzles exhaust gas were used for ejector which exhaust engine room hot air.(Located bottom part of the engine.)
Of course engine was cooled by mainly forced cooling air by forced cooling fan which located behind the engine.
You can see oil cooler air intake in the 4th picture.(After end of the fuselage)
 

Attachments

  • engine room hot gas exit.jpg
    engine room hot gas exit.jpg
    48 KB · Views: 90
  • thrust gas exit.jpg
    thrust gas exit.jpg
    107.1 KB · Views: 125
  • Oil cooler.jpg
    Oil cooler.jpg
    173.6 KB · Views: 130
  • Ejector concept.jpg
    Ejector concept.jpg
    30.7 KB · Views: 134
  • in flight.jpg
    in flight.jpg
    389.6 KB · Views: 167
  • Shinden engine 1.jpg
    Shinden engine 1.jpg
    165.4 KB · Views: 159
  • Shinden engine exhaust pipe.jpg
    Shinden engine exhaust pipe.jpg
    242 KB · Views: 109
  • Shinden engine 2.jpg
    Shinden engine 2.jpg
    153.9 KB · Views: 581

windswords

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
355
Reaction score
103
blackkite said:
We hope Shinden restoration in the U.S.Washington D.C. B)

I have always wanted to see two aircraft restored and put on display at the Smithsonian: The Horten Ho-229 and the J7W1. If they were done I would take a vacation to Washington DC just to see those two planes.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
windswords said:
blackkite said:
We hope Shinden restoration in the U.S.Washington D.C. B)

I have always wanted to see two aircraft restored and put on display at the Smithsonian: The Horten Ho-229 and the J7W1. If they were done I would take a vacation to Washington DC just to see those two planes.
Thanks windswords! Me,too. ;)
I used to visit Fort Lauderdale and Miami. Florida was worm in winter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2ifDWxkVGs
 

Basil

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
254
Reaction score
50
Blackkite, thanks for the detailed pictures of the exhaust / ejector cooling system of the Shinden. It's hard to get these informations as a non japanese speaking person.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Basil said:
Blackkite, thanks for the detailed pictures of the exhaust / ejector cooling system of the Shinden. It's hard to get these informations as a non japanese speaking person.
Hi! I think it's my responsibility. Sorry not enough.
I realize Shinden shape demerit one more.
It's hard to cool engine and oil when ground engine test, because engine and oil cooler are not exposed high speed propeller after stream.
Perhaps it's one of the reason why Shinden had a forced cooling fan and ejector type oil coolers.

And R/C model.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/96fighter/E_scr_J7W1.htm
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Hi! Same scale.
Bottom one is Shinden, Manshu Ki-98 and Tachikawa Ki-94
 

Attachments

  • same scale 2.jpg
    same scale 2.jpg
    73.3 KB · Views: 190
  • same scale.jpg
    same scale.jpg
    91.9 KB · Views: 298

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Hi!
Japanese projected(at the end of the war) interceptors data.
 

Attachments

  • Japanese projected interceptors list.jpg
    Japanese projected interceptors list.jpg
    564.3 KB · Views: 412
  • Japanese projected interceptors list.pdf
    41.5 KB · Views: 37

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Hi!
Senden arrangement.

Engine Oil cooler Engine mounting Fuselage frame Forced cooling fan Extended propeller shaft Fuselage longitudinal frame 30mm cannon 30mm cannon cartridge 20mm cannon 20mm cannon cartridge Fuel tank Front gear wireless apparatusPropeller breakaway mechanism Propeller

Senden was cancelled in October 1944 due to MK9D engine under power, failure of Vulkan coupling development or failure of Vulkan coupling application to MK9D engine and extended propeller shaft trouble.
Senden’s engine cooling problem was clearly solved by the test (9 months) using MK9D engine and full scale fuselage model. Horizontal tail stabilizer vibration was clearly solved by the wind tunnel test and the design change.
(Source : Senden’s chief designer Eitaro Sato’s report)
I think Shinden received some feedback from Senden’s failure.
For example, MK9D engine modification(the first stage supercharger design including Vulkan coupling, oil cooler concept and extended propellre shaft design). Don't you think so?
Shinden’s first stage supercharger shape is different from Senden’s one.
Shinden’s first stage supercharger had twin impeller, but from
Senden’s arrangement drawing, I feel Senden’s first stage supercharger had a single impeller.
 

Attachments

  • Senden.jpg
    Senden.jpg
    27.1 KB · Views: 255
  • Senden stabilizer.jpg
    Senden stabilizer.jpg
    478.6 KB · Views: 301
  • Senden arrangement.jpg
    Senden arrangement.jpg
    174.2 KB · Views: 338

Nick Sumner

Live! From the Belly of the Beast!
Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
526
Reaction score
140
This is great information Blackite - thank you!

May I just ask - the 'Vulkan Coupling', this was Daimler Benz technology adapted by Mitsubishi for their engines? If Mitsubishi couldn't get the technology to work could they have used a more conventional approach to two speed supercharger control?
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Nick Sumner said:
This is great information Blackite - thank you!

May I just ask - the 'Vulkan Coupling', this was Daimler Benz technology adapted by Mitsubishi for their engines?
Hi Nick!
I think that's right. Perhaps Mitsubishi got Vulkan coupling technology from Kawasaki. Kawasaki already applied this technology to Hien's Ha-40 engine. The merit of using Vulkan coupling is high climb rate. It was very important characteristic for the interceptor.
If only Vulkan coupling was adjusted properly, HA-40 engine worked well at the day.
 

Justo Miranda

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
4,211
Reaction score
1,850
Similar comparative german project here
 

Attachments

  • ñ.jpg
    ñ.jpg
    110 KB · Views: 290
  • ñ 001.jpg
    ñ 001.jpg
    306.8 KB · Views: 151
  • ñ 002.jpg
    ñ 002.jpg
    297.1 KB · Views: 157

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Wow thanks Justo!
The German is one of the our best teacher in the past, now and in the future.
The engine was liquid cooling double array radial engine BMW803. :eek: B)
The radiator was located behind the big forced cooling fan.
 

Attachments

  • bmw803.gif
    bmw803.gif
    37.2 KB · Views: 86
  • DSCF2627.jpg
    DSCF2627.jpg
    67.2 KB · Views: 90

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
26,665
Reaction score
3,457
Justo Miranda said:
Similar comparative german project here


What was the last two aircraft?, Focke Wulf projects or not .
 

chuck4

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Jan 17, 2011
Messages
803
Reaction score
6
Is there any provision for the pilot to avoid the props during bailout?
 

Justo Miranda

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
4,211
Reaction score
1,850
Focke Wulf Jäger projekt mit BMW 803 , and Heinkel "Kartusche" ejector seat.
 

windswords

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
355
Reaction score
103
chuck4 said:
Is there any provision for the pilot to avoid the props during bailout?

If you look at one of the the diagrams posted by Blackkite it refers to number 15 as "Propeller breakaway mechanism". Maybe it's some kind of explosive charge to blow off the prop so the pilot can bail out.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Hi! Hasegawa's Shinden model.
 

Attachments

  • Shinden 4.jpg
    Shinden 4.jpg
    517.8 KB · Views: 167
  • Shinden 3.jpg
    Shinden 3.jpg
    513.7 KB · Views: 211
  • Shinden 2.jpg
    Shinden 2.jpg
    369.8 KB · Views: 236
  • Shinden 1.jpg
    Shinden 1.jpg
    804.2 KB · Views: 234

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Shinden’s main wing was a laminar flow wing, maximum thickness located 45% wing chord.
Wing root and wing tip angle of attack was 0 degree while wing middle position's angle of attack was 3 degee.
Front wing area was 10% of main wing area.
Front wing span and wing chord were 1/3 of main wing.
Front wing aerodynamic effect to the main wing was small.
Front wing had leading edge slat and double flap (slotted flap + plain flap).
Double flap also had the function of elevator.
Angle of attack of front wing was 1 degree.
 

Attachments

  • Shinden's wing.jpg
    Shinden's wing.jpg
    146.2 KB · Views: 168
  • Shinden's wing 2.jpg
    Shinden's wing 2.jpg
    287.7 KB · Views: 123
  • Shinden's front wing.jpg
    Shinden's front wing.jpg
    130.3 KB · Views: 122

robunos

You're Mad, You Are.....
Senior Member
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
1,894
Reaction score
232
Two images of a Shinden-Kai model taken at Scale Model World on 10/11/2012...

cheers,
Robin.
 

Attachments

  • shinden-kai #1.png
    shinden-kai #1.png
    958.2 KB · Views: 96
  • shinden-kai #2.png
    shinden-kai #2.png
    932.3 KB · Views: 88

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
2,532
Hi! Kyushu's original drawing.(nose section)
 

Attachments

  • original drawing nose.jpg
    original drawing nose.jpg
    1 MB · Views: 128

Similar threads

Top