Kashmir Conflict 2025 - News ONLY

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Ainen said:
We haven't seen meteors, we haven't seen KH-31s yet. Ok, meteors are few and rare(PL-15s were found already however?), but russian ARMs back in feb 2022 appeared in numbers immediately. Also, sheer numbers(PAF claim is >70 indian a/c, most of which clearly tactical).

Unless those emerge, i suspect they tried to do a clean, white gloves strike deep into Pakistan (huge escalation over 2019!), relying on EW basically (Rafales, plus Indian Su-30s carry SAP-514 escort jammers), without triggering a war.

PAF was given a huge advantage in initiative in this case, which they promptly proceeded to realise with deadly efficiency.
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Springtime said:
Considering the Air Defense environment in Pakistan I'd say professionally no but public sadly the Rafale is looking like it more has a friend in the F-35 as far as PR go's though i don't think it will effect export orders to much it's still a very capable fighter
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helmutkohl said:
I agree, the Rafale is a capable aircraft.. of its generation.
but much has to be said about how much more capable air defenses and missiles have become and where VLO designs have a stronger advantage in working in contested airspace.
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One thing that has occurred to me. Given how recently the Rafales were delivered, were their EW and other systems fully operational (including aircrew training) when they were sent into the fray, or did the Indian high command assume that their mission planning (such as it was and what there was of it, from the current look of things) along with the Su-30s doing jamming duty would cover for any missing systems?
 
Of course plane is delivered and accepted at its fully capable state； India is not a launch customer.

Things can happen with internal customer or client states(plus something bribery of course), but as a rule of thumb, paying customer such as India can enforce proper delivery.

It's often how glitchy military hardware starts working in the first place, customer abroad has more power over supplier to make things work
 
Its hard to say for sure, but possibly the Indian aircraft got caught unawares, splashed from distance from behind while returning to base. They would have potentially little warning.

J-10C has an modern AESA radar and a very potent BVR missile. I'm not sure why it being able to shoot down non-stealth fighters from long distance is surprising.
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Its hard to say for sure, but possibly the Indian aircraft got caught unawares, splashed from distance from behind while returning to base. They would have potentially little warning.

J-10C has an modern AESA radar and a very potent BVR missile. I'm not sure why it being able to shoot down non-stealth fighters from long distance is surprising.
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We'll get the picture at some point.

Right now we need to somehow conjure what indian side was doing, and what and when was lost over the course of that hour.
 
ComradeVortex said:
On Telegram channels, the comment of the Russian military Voevoda Broadcasting seems to underline the law of retaliation with the ever-increasing purchases of weapons from Moscow in favor of Western hardware with the laconic statement: - By the way, before the Special Military Operation, the Indians were offered to buy the R-37M and adapt them to the Su-30MKI. I smiled like a skin - that was the answer - now let's buy French. What is the conclusion, now?”

Anyway, I would still blame the Indians. Both platforms are capable. It’s them that they can’t use them.
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J-10s are supposed to be China's all purpose fighter, followed on by the more potent 4.5 gen jets like the J-16 and then by the 5th and 6th gen jets. An Indian loss of this magnitude especially with regards to the Rafale suggests some very serious planning and employment inadequacies.

Edit: Or maybe the Rafale is a capable but a bog standard 4.5 gen jet with overhyped marketing, I think a bit of both is at play. This certainly might lead more and more countries to favour proper stealth options.
 
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TomcatViP said:
125 jets battling for an hour and not a single Indian jet to score a kill?! That is baffling and would require an official explanation.
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Same thing happened in 2019. If I remember correctly Indian sources were claiming 2 pairs of 8 F-16s were lobbing missiles at two SU-30MKIs, subsequently all missiles were defeated but the SU-30MKIs were from a ground attack squadron and didn’t have any A2A missiles or didn’t fire back.

Those same SU-30MKI pilots did get awards (Avenger 1) and (Avenger 2). The difference is the giant MKIs somehow evaded missile barrages multiple times while much smaller and lower RCS Rafale did not especially with its highly taunted Spectra EW system.

In my opinion, Pakistanis look to gain operational numerical superiority and lob lots of missiles causing Indian aircraft to go defensive. The Indians, on the other hand, like to play hide and seek and for whatever dumb reason never shoot back and it seem the PAF is always the one that strikes first at least from an aerial engagement standpoint. Indian doctrine is baffling, or lack there of. They were offered R-73M but apparently passed, and are more interested in shorter range missiles that are not combat proven. Actions have consequences I guess.
 
Galaxy said:
Same thing happened in 2019. If I remember correctly Indian sources were claiming 2 pairs of 8 F-16s were lobbing missiles at two SU-30MKIs, subsequently all missiles were defeated but the SU-30MKIs were from a ground attack squadron and didn’t have any A2A missiles or didn’t fire back.

Those same SU-30MKI pilots did get awards (Avenger 1) and (Avenger 2). The difference is the giant MKIs somehow evaded missile barrages multiple times while much smaller and lower RCS Rafale did not especially with its highly taunted Spectra EW system.

In my opinion, Pakistanis look to gain operational numerical superiority and lob lots of missiles causing Indian aircraft to go defensive. The Indians, on the other hand, like to play hide and seek and for whatever dumb reason never shoot back and it seem the PAF is always the one that strikes first at least from an aerial engagement standpoint. Indian doctrine is baffling, or lack there of. They were offered R-73M but apparently passed, and are more interested in shorter range missiles that are not combat proven. Actions have consequences I guess.
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That stuff about Su-30 dodging dozens of AMRAAMs sounds like hyperbolae TBH
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Its hard to say for sure, but possibly the Indian aircraft got caught unawares, splashed from distance from behind while returning to base. They would have potentially little warning.

J-10C has an modern AESA radar and a very potent BVR missile. I'm not sure why it being able to shoot down non-stealth fighters from long distance is surprising.
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The surprising aspect is that it did so against state of the art 4.5 gen aircraft at possibly 90KM+. Rafale has very sophisticated avionics and RWR, so the fact that it got picked off at such a long range is kinda disturbing. Ukrainian flankers and fulcrums don’t have good RWR so it is less surprising they get sniped at long range.
 
sf7pakistan said:
That stuff about Su-30 dodging dozens of AMRAAMs sounds like hyperbolae TBH
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Did I say “dozens”? I just said missile barrages, that could be 4 or 6 or 8, never did I say dozens as I don’t know the exact number. Apparently one Pakistani pilot is claiming he shot down 21 Indian jets, that’s hyperbolae if I ever seen it.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1920356031542018218
View: https://x.com/AngrySaffron/status/1920356031542018218

[fake - video is taken out of context and is not related to topic] - admin
 
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Galaxy said:
Did I say “dozens”? I just said missile barrages, that could be 4 or 6 or 8, never did I say dozens as I don’t know the exact number. Apparently one Pakistani pilot is claiming he shot down 21 Indian jets, that’s hyperbolae if I ever seen it.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1920356031542018218
View: https://x.com/AngrySaffron/status/1920356031542018218

[fake - video is taken out of context and is not related to topic] - admin
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A lot depends on the range. Firing missiles outside of the zone of no escape could force strike aircraft to go defensive and drop their bombs... it can also be done with much less risk to the firing aircraft.
 
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Galaxy said:
Did I say “dozens”? I just said missile barrages, that could be 4 or 6 or 8, never did I say dozens as I don’t know the exact number. Apparently one Pakistani pilot is claiming he shot down 21 Indian jets, that’s hyperbolae if I ever seen it.
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I used dozens in the literary sense, not in the literal sense that notwithstanding the whole scenario sounds made up.

8 Vipers with a standard loadout of 4 AMRAAMs per jet totaling 32 missiles only for them to waste all of them at 2 Su-30s of whom not even one gets shot down is hyperbolic and seems to be something made for domestic consumption. Pakistan has some 500 AMRAAMs and it makes no sense whatsoever to waste 6.4% of the stockpile at a failed attempt to shoot down just two Flankers.

And IDK who that pilot is or if he even exists but I'm hearing that for the first time.
 
Galaxy said:
Did I say “dozens”? I just said missile barrages, that could be 4 or 6 or 8, never did I say dozens as I don’t know the exact number. Apparently one Pakistani pilot is claiming he shot down 21 Indian jets, that’s hyperbolae if I ever seen it.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1920356031542018218
View: https://x.com/AngrySaffron/status/1920356031542018218
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That video is also completely misleading. He's not claiming to have shot down 21 aircraft by himself but is instead telling of an engagement where 21 aircraft were shot down presumably in the 65 or 71 War.
 
sf7pakistan said:
I used dozens in the literary sense, not in the literal sense that notwithstanding the whole scenario sounds made up.

8 Vipers with a standard loadout of 4 AMRAAMs per jet totaling 32 missiles only for them to waste all of them at 2 Su-30s of whom not even one gets shot down is hyperbolic and seems to be something made for domestic consumption. Pakistan has some 500 AMRAAMs and it makes no sense whatsoever to waste 6.4% of the stockpile at a failed attempt to shoot down just two Flankers.

And IDK who that pilot is or if he even exists but I'm hearing that for the first time.
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I’m am not interested in your opinion of past engagements being fake or your hypothetical opinions on how many missiles were fired. I only mentioned the incident in which 2 SU-30MKI pilots were awarded in 2019 as context per Indian operational execution. The context that the argument was that Pakistan uses local numerical superiority or fires lots of missiles causing Indian aircraft to go defensive while Indians play peekaboo. Lots of nonsense coming from Pakistan like claiming a MKI kill in 2019, both sides say claim ridiculous things.
 
Galaxy said:
Same thing happened in 2019. If I remember correctly Indian sources were claiming 2 pairs of 8 F-16s were lobbing missiles at two SU-30MKIs, subsequently all missiles were defeated but the SU-30MKIs were from a ground attack squadron and didn’t have any A2A missiles or didn’t fire back.

Those same SU-30MKI pilots did get awards (Avenger 1) and (Avenger 2). The difference is the giant MKIs somehow evaded missile barrages multiple times while much smaller and lower RCS Rafale did not especially with its highly taunted Spectra EW system.

In my opinion, Pakistanis look to gain operational numerical superiority and lob lots of missiles causing Indian aircraft to go defensive. The Indians, on the other hand, like to play hide and seek and for whatever dumb reason never shoot back and it seem the PAF is always the one that strikes first at least from an aerial engagement standpoint. Indian doctrine is baffling, or lack there of. They were offered R-73M but apparently passed, and are more interested in shorter range missiles that are not combat proven. Actions have consequences I guess.
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In 2019, these PL-15 missiles weren't there. Planning an attack like 6 years back, while facing a weapon system whose characteristics are quite new and unknown makes a huge difference.

Indo-Pak Tensions: China Makes “Express” Delivery Of PL-15 Missiles To Pakistan To Counter Rafale Threat: Speculative Report​

 
One operation with a limited number of shoot-downs tells us precisely nothing.

We don't know the ROEs the IAF was operating, whether they had reasonable loadouts, whether they were politically constrained into less than optimal tactics, or what.

If the Indian government wanted to leave a route for de-escalation, then the last thing they would have wanted is mass engagement, which may have meant restrictive ROEs.

(And ditto for the PAF)

There's too many unknowns, and to much propaganda, to draw any conclusions whatsoever.

Remember, the singular of data excludes 'a pattern', but doesn't exclude 'blind chance', or 'golden BB'.
 
Galaxy said:
Who was talking about PL-15s in 2019 especially from F-16????
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That's my point, they weren't any in 2019. And you are comparing this recent event with 2019 :
Galaxy said:
Same thing happened in 2019. If I remember correctly Indian sources were claiming 2 pairs of 8 F-16s were lobbing missiles at two SU-30MKIs, subsequently all missiles were defeated but the SU-30MKIs were from a ground attack squadron and didn’t have any A2A missiles or didn’t fire back.

Those same SU-30MKI pilots did get awards (Avenger 1) and (Avenger 2). The difference is the giant MKIs somehow evaded missile barrages multiple times while much smaller and lower RCS Rafale did not especially with its highly taunted Spectra EW system.

...
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That's why I point to one big difference with 2019 are these PL-15 been there this time, see ?
 
Galaxy said:
I’m am not interested in your opinion of past engagements being fake or your hypothetical opinions on how many missiles were fired. I only mentioned the incident in which 2 SU-30MKI pilots were awarded in 2019 as context per Indian operational execution. The context that the argument was that Pakistan uses local numerical superiority or fires lots of missiles causing Indian aircraft to go defensive while Indians play peekaboo. Lots of nonsense coming from Pakistan like claiming a MKI kill in 2019, both sides say claim ridiculous things.
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And I'm saying that that incident sounds made up as Pakistan doesn't have enough missiles to lob so many that multiple Flankers are able to evade multiple barrages of them. Hence my made for domestic consumption comment that this story is probably a puff piece.
 
sf7pakistan said:
And I'm saying that that incident sounds made up as Pakistan doesn't have enough missiles to lob so many that multiple Flankers are able to evade multiple barrages of them. Hence my made for domestic consumption comment that this story is probably a puff piece.
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Again you are making assumptions that dozens of missiles were fire and you stubbornly keep insisting as much and how it sounds fake. Indians also released some radar imagery of the F-16s. Again you are missing the entire point, Pakistani doctrine vs Indian doctrine. Anyone can claim either side lies out of their rears.
 
Galaxy said:
Again you are making assumptions that dozens of missiles were fire and you stubbornly keep insisting as much and how it sounds fake. Indians also released some radar imagery of the F-16s. Again you are missing the entire point, Pakistani doctrine vs Indian doctrine. Anyone can claim either side lies out of their rears.
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Galaxy said:
In my opinion, Pakistanis look to gain operational numerical superiority and lob lots of missiles causing Indian aircraft to go defensive.
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I'm not assuming dozens, I'm responding to what you said about this. We do not have lots of missiles to lob in the first place.
 
DWG said:
If the Indian government wanted to leave a route for de-escalation, then the last thing they would have wanted is mass engagement, which may have meant restrictive ROEs.
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Big problem and question is how it aligns with engagement lasting over an hour?
 
sf7pakistan said:
I'm not assuming dozens, I'm responding to what you said about this. We do not have lots of missiles to lob in the first place.
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You literally said “dozens” and then walked back that you claimed saying didn’t mean it literally, now you claim Pakistan doesn’t have lots of missiles. Launching many missiles at a single aircraft or a few aircraft is not a new concept nor is it difficult for aircraft to evade said missiles. In the Gulf War a pair of F-15s fired a lot of missiles at a MiG-25. Firing a barrage of missiles increases a probability of a kill and causes the opponent to go defensive. Why is that difficult to understanding?
 
Btw, reporting this I've read on another forum, The Qatari Rafales are flown and maintained by Pakistani crew (yes real, crazy...)... So it doesn't take a 1 + 1 to deduce that its electronic defence and attack system as good as it may be, has been compromised by the Pakistanis and handed over to China.
Plus the Indians planning their strike like years before, and that's what you get.
 
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