Irish Naval Service / Irish Navy

sparky42 said:
Out at the rugby at the moment but tomorrow il dig out the book by her designer. Off the top of my head the design didn’t much change, though as systems went obsolete they weren’t replaced. He had hoped a second one would have a larger landing deck and some changes to her fuel systems. A lot came down to the AC getting notions and screwing up the selection of the helicopter and all the knock ons that brought. Which has left its mark up until now.
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Is it safe to make snarky comments about "good idea fairies" around Ireland? I'd think the local fae are not impressed.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Is it safe to make snarky comments about "good idea fairies" around Ireland? I'd think the local fae are not impressed.
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Of all the three, the AC tend to be the ones that get "notions" the most, and always fall for the industrial PR and let themselves get talked into being first users/adopters, Dauphin, the CASA 225 MSA/MPA, the AW139s, tried for years to be the first user of the KC390.

In the case of the Eithne project, it goes back to the time when the Cobh Dockyard was actually part of one of the Dutch companies, they did all the model testing for the Irish navy (screwing up Deirdre something terrible, hence the running joke she was the first submarine of the NS), and they had got the Dutch navy onboard with helping the Eithne's development, with the Sea Lynx being the helicopter.

All grand, until the 80's being the 80's tensions over NI flared and the French arrived, promising all new capabilities with the Dauphin, the AC, loving the smoke the French were blowing up their arse, picked the Dauphin at which point the Dutch Navy pointed out that they didn't use it, and couldn't help anymore. Which would have been an issue to be worked on, but turns out the French shockingly had oversold how ready the new variant was, resulting in significant issues and delays, cost increases etc.

Queue finger pointing, yelling, DOD blaming both sides, long story short, why the NS was forbidden from having the 50's or 60's with helicopter capabilities.

Not sure where the suggestion for 4 of Eithne came from, off the top of my head, the "hope" was only 2 plus a "science" vessel variant, but the yard had terrible building practices and massive IR strains, it literally shut the day Eithne launched, she in fact had to be towed to the basin from memory.

The sad thing is, according to her designer, there was foreign interest in the design, think India at the time was looking at her as the basis of an OPV series, while the US Coastguard who worked with the NS/AC as they brought their own Dauphin variant into service reportedly considered her a better design than their own Famous class cutters. But with the yard in liquidation the ownership of the IP of the design was stuck in legal limbo so nothing ever happened.
 
In the Reddit story about Eithne, someone says in comments that her stabilizers didn't work very well, so the ship was not a very stable platform for helicopter operations. The hangar was also small. The Lynx was designed for windy conditions, that's why it was this aerodynamic shape. Perhaps it would be better choice for operating from Eithne, but if the ship was not stable enough, it wouldn't help so much.

Also in the comments says that a 28 kn light frigate was considered for Irish Naval Service in late 1970's to early 1980's.
 
Odysseus1980 said:
In the Reddit story about Eithne, someone says in comments that her stabilizers didn't work very well, so the ship was not a very stable platform for helicopter operations. The hangar was also small. The Lynx was designed for windy conditions, that's why it was this aerodynamic shape. Perhaps it would be better choice for operating from Eithne, but if the ship was not stable enough, it wouldn't help so much.

Also in the comments says that a 28 kn light frigate was considered for Irish Naval Service in late 1970's to early 1980's.
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From comments from I think a now passed away former XO of her during the helicopter trials she handled well enough, the issue was the AC pilots had effectively a difficult training pipeline once the decision was made for the Dauphin. The hanger was fine, it was more that the specs and intention was for it to be able to handle major repair/replacement work on board which turned out not to be possible, though how much of that was the AC techs not wanting to be on a ship and how much was design restrictions is another issue.

As to that "Light Frigate", its kind of urban myth, I've seen it linked to random questions from TD's about one of the UK frigates built for export, from memory the nation it was going to had a coup, sale cancelled, the UK wanting to offload it to someone, think it ended up a half warship/half training ship off the top of my head.

I've never seen any records of serious planning for such a purchase, and we are talking 1970s/80's Ireland, tiny economy, overwhelming majority of a tiny defence budget geared towards the Army for ATCP operations. It's very hard to see the requirement at that point for a frigate for the NS, or the budget being made available.
 
Odysseus1980 said:
Very good!

The original planning was for 4 Eithne, in theory could be built (Ι think).
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Again, I've only seen suggestions of 3, one follow on for the NS and a Research variant for the State, the NS then didn't have the establishment to operate 4 Eithne's nor the AC.

In modern news, seems the sonobuoy story is actually for the AC, with the 2 Casa's to be refitted with launch capabilities, though still no suggestion of them being fitted with any weapon systems. Can imagine the reaction in Finance and DOD when they start using stocks of Buoys.
 
sparky42 said:
As to that "Light Frigate", its kind of urban myth, I've seen it linked to random questions from TD's about one of the UK frigates built for export, from memory the nation it was going to had a coup, sale cancelled, the UK wanting to offload it to someone, think it ended up a half warship/half training ship off the top of my head.
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That would presumably be MERMAID - built for Ghana as a combination frigate/presidential yacht, completed for the Royal Navy in the hopes that it could be sold on to someone else. In the meantime, it spent a fair bit of time doing odd jobs in the Far East then getting in between UK-flagged fishing vessels and Icelandic OPVs.

As it turned out the 'someone else' was the Royal Malaysian Navy, which bought the ship in 1977.
 
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Going through the Oireachtas records, there's a few different mentions of frigates (mostly nonsense, or dumb arse questions), but in November 1969 (ie when the Flowers were all but dead and replacing them was unavoidable), there were questions about purchase of Frigates. The first referenced purchasing a Leopard class, then a week later referencing the hull that was to become Mermaid.
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1969-11-20/76/?highlight[0]=frigatehttps://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1969-11-27/102/?highlight[0]=frigateI mean the crazy thing is in the first debate referenced further down there's an answer of how many were in the NS at the time, with only 387 personnel in total, so how anyone figured buying a ship that needed 200 odd crew would work is beyond me.
 
Flowers had a crew 85, Mermaid 210 andvthe other 2 had 140 crew.

With only 387 personnel in Irish Naval Service even to mann the 3 Flowers is difficult.

Leopard frigate needed 200 crew.
 
Odysseus1980 said:
Flowers had a crew 85, Mermaid 210 andvthe other 2 had 140 crew.

With only 387 personnel in Irish Naval Service even to mann the 3 Flowers is difficult.

Leopard frigate needed 200 crew.
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By that time they weren't manning 3, only one was capable of going to sea and even that probably was a risk. My Godfather's father was one of the last support workers that actually knew how to service the steam plants, they kept him employed long after he hit retirement age because of that.
 
Looks like the Samuel Beckett Class are getting an upgrade...

This is CAPTAS 1. The medium range air surveillance radar will be European as well, lots to choose from, suspect they'll go for something from France, Sweden or Netherlands. Sensible move would be to get Thales, who they have a contractual relationship with...and who will be onboard fitting CAPTAS and supporting it...to just go ahead and fit NS50 or NS100...might as well get the EW from them as well...

https://twitter.com/x/status/2035240766008590419
View: https://x.com/roy_kinsella/status/2035240766008590419
 
timmymagic said:
Looks like the Samuel Beckett Class are getting an upgrade...

This is CAPTAS 1. The medium range air surveillance radar will be European as well, lots to choose from, suspect they'll go for something from France, Sweden or Netherlands. Sensible move would be to get Thales, who they have a contractual relationship with...and who will be onboard fitting CAPTAS and supporting it...to just go ahead and fit NS50 or NS100...might as well get the EW from them as well...

https://twitter.com/x/status/2035240766008590419
View: https://x.com/roy_kinsella/status/2035240766008590419
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We knew it was the CAPTAS 1, the main point is that it’s the first firm number of units we are getting, 3 with an option for another is probably the best case scenario. Be interesting to see where they graft the new control room, that’s been a long standing complaint.
 
sparky42 said:
We knew it was the CAPTAS 1, the main point is that it’s the first firm number of units we are getting, 3 with an option for another is probably the best case scenario. Be interesting to see where they graft the new control room, that’s been a long standing complaint.
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Think it makes sense all to get from 1 vendor specifically for that reason, squeezing it all in and the procurement/PM and contractual management would be a whole lot easier with just the one prime, Thales has the range of products to suit as well...

You never know they might convince the INS to add LMM as well...be a big improvement on those Oerlikons...
 
timmymagic said:
Think it makes sense all to get from 1 vendor specifically for that reason, squeezing it all in and the procurement/PM and contractual management would be a whole lot easier with just the one prime, Thales has the range of products to suit as well...

You never know they might convince the INS to add LMM as well...be a big improvement on those Oerlikons...
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We don't have any Oerlikons they left service years ago, the secondary mounts are Rheinmetall Rh202's. They are meant to be replaced but Ordinance Branch have been slow rolling it for years, think the intent was for them to be replaced with whatever the Army selected but that seems unlikely now, last I heard the rumour was a Bushmaster mount as replacement along with being fitted to the two Lake class hulls.
 
Grey Havoc said:
Bureaucracy at it's finest....

:rolleyes:
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Well to be fair, ordnance branch might still be annoyed that the NS ended up standardising on the 76mm, think for the 50s on they argued for a 40mm mount. But since they are coming in for an early midlife it would make sense for the secondaries to be switched then, unless whatever “EW” CUAS equipment replaces them?
 
sparky42 said:
We don't have any Oerlikons they left service years ago, the secondary mounts are Rheinmetall Rh202's. They are meant to be replaced but Ordinance Branch have been slow rolling it for years, think the intent was for them to be replaced with whatever the Army selected but that seems unlikely now, last I heard the rumour was a Bushmaster mount as replacement along with being fitted to the two Lake class hulls.
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I almost put Rh202 but then couldn't remember if the number was right so settled on Oerlikon as they use the same ammo....

Bushmaster mount? Presumably they'd be using the Mk.44 in 30 x 173 as the MOWAG uses that?

That pretty much means buying the MSI DS30M in practice....if they get round to it thats a sensible move as it allows the latest proximity rounds to be used as well...wide user base, and it appears to be one of the better, if not the best, mounts out there...can't imagine USN committing to it if it wasn't..

Hell in a dream world they could get the Seahawk Sigma and have LMM and Starstreak on the side...actually have SAM's on an INS vessel....but that's never going to happen though...would make a lot of sense in terms of protection from drones and FAC/USV though...

sparky42 said:
Well to be fair, ordnance branch might still be annoyed that the NS ended up standardising on the 76mm, think for the 50s on they argued for a 40mm mount. But since they are coming in for an early midlife it would make sense for the secondaries to be switched then, unless whatever “EW” CUAS equipment replaces them?
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Was that as a result of the purchase of the Peacocks in the late 80's?
 
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timmymagic said:
I almost put Rh202 but then couldn't remember if the number was right so settled on Oerlikon as they use the same ammo....

Bushmaster mount? Presumably they'd be using the Mk.44 in 30 x 173 as the MOWAG uses that?

That pretty much means buying the MSI DS30M in practice....if they get round to it thats a sensible move as it allows the latest proximity rounds to be used as well...wide user base, and it appears to be one of the better, if not the best, mounts out there...can't imagine USN committing to it if it wasn't..

Hell in a dream world they could get the Seahawk Sigma and have LMM and Starstreak on the side...actually have SAM's on an INS vessel....but that's never going to happen though...would make a lot of sense in terms of protection from drones and FAC/USV though...



Was that as a result of the purchase of the Peacocks in the late 80's?
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The rumour has long been that, guess its just a wait and see if they get replaced in this refit program. And yeah, if Eithne hadn't gone tits up it might have been the 57mm that we standardised on, but the Peacocks pretty much set the standard for the NS.
 
sparky42 said:
New rumour from the Irish Times, that the announcement yesterday of a MoU with Italy in terms of G2G procurement involves new SuperRapid 76mm mounts for the P60s.
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Excellent choice! load one ready drum with DART, load the other with Vulcano.
 
Navy related news, its been announced that the talks to join the "JEF+" are progressing, with the plan (due to the limits of the NS and politics) to take up an "observer" position working with the JEF nations, for increased intelligence sharing and countering Russian "grey" activities. Meanwhile one of the RN 23's has the job this time providing coverage along with one of the P60's for the EU/UK/et al Defence/Foreign Affairs meeting being held currently.
 
Meanwhile a bit of old history is finally being worked on as the Naval Base Drydock is getting some attention, with the damaged Caisson that's been sitting in the dock for decades finally in the process of being lifted out. Wonder if they will get the funding for their wishlist of reinstating the dock and roofing it as well?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/991302010002572/
 
Did the Irish Navy ever considered acquiring major surface combatants like corvettes, frigates or even a destroyer since it's creation apart from the few Flower class corvettes?
 
Tzoli said:
Did the Irish Navy ever considered acquiring major surface combatants like corvettes, frigates or even a destroyer since it's creation apart from the few Flower class corvettes?
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Apart from some fantasy questions in the Daíl, or some fantasy fleet wishlists, no. The manpower and finances have never been there.
 
sparky42 said:
Apart from some fantasy questions in the Daíl, or some fantasy fleet wishlists, no. The manpower and finances have never been there.
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Fantasy fleet wishlists? Like what some admirals wanted?
 
Tzoli said:
Fantasy fleet wishlists? Like what some admirals wanted?
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The first time we didn't even have a navy let alone an admiral, but yeah in the late 20's there was a naval conference, the RN side was offering support for 1 or 2 Minesweeper squadrons and a "lets see if you can behave" position, while the Irish side was looking towards a much more expansive build up, think it was a half a destroyer squadron and a Light Cruiser they were thinking of. But those talks broke down over the Treaty forts, and were insanely optimistic from the Irish side in the first place.

After that, there was hope for more Corvettes, originally 3 more Flowers, then possibly 3 Castle class instead but that came to nothing due to Anglo-Irish relations post war.

Other than that, as I've posted before, sometimes randomly there were suggestions of some Frigates in the late 70's from some TD's but the manpower and budget just weren't there.
 
sparky42 said:
The first time we didn't even have a navy let alone an admiral, but yeah in the late 20's there was a naval conference, the RN side was offering support for 1 or 2 Minesweeper squadrons and a "lets see if you can behave" position, while the Irish side was looking towards a much more expansive build up, think it was a half a destroyer squadron and a Light Cruiser they were thinking of. But those talks broke down over the Treaty forts, and were insanely optimistic from the Irish side in the first place.

After that, there was hope for more Corvettes, originally 3 more Flowers, then possibly 3 Castle class instead but that came to nothing due to Anglo-Irish relations post war.

Other than that, as I've posted before, sometimes randomly there were suggestions of some Frigates in the late 70's from some TD's but the manpower and budget just weren't there.
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A CL? I presume one of the ABC classes from WW1?
 
Tzoli said:
A CL? I presume one of the ABC classes from WW1?
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It never got fleshed out, frankly I go with the Army officers sent over not having a notion, which the RN side pointed out after talks broke down, but it never got beyond that conference and as far as I know there wasn't even work done in Dublin on the matter, before or after.
 

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