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Iranian Indigenous Fighter projects (Saeqeh, etc)

Abraham Gubler

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On the RF-4E front the IIAF had a squadron of 16 delivered in the early 1970s and a second squadron of 16 on order and the aircraft under production at the time of the revolution which were not delivered.
 

Grey Havoc

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Straying off-topic for a moment longer, it would be interesting to know if the IIAF ever expressed any interest in this 747SP concept, even though Iran had signed up to the NPT in 1970.
 

lancer21

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Abraham Gubler said:
lancer21 said:
Indeed it will be very interesting. I think they were having at least 7 E-3 AEWs in the pipeline too , right ?

Yes forgot the AWACS.

lancer21 said:
Regarding the F-4Es, slightly odd that 240 figure imo, why would they buy an old design at the time in such high numbers when newer type were available? I believe the author must have been confused, perhaps 240 represented the total F-4D/E /RF-4 order or just the total F-4E order (apparently there were F-4Es and RF-4s that were not delivered because of the revolution).

It was the only medium range strike fighter in production in the USA at the time, apart from the F-15 (“not a pound for air to ground” wasn’t true). Since they had F-4Es in service it is by far the simpler way to increase the size of their force. From memory they had around 150 F-4Es in service with 30 odd interceptor F-4Cs and a squadron of RF-4. 240 more F-4Es allows them to increase their strike fighter force from two wings to five. The book in question is pretty clear that it is an additional order and it cites a larger history of the Iranian Air Force as its source.

lancer21 said:
Imagine Iran's air power ( if nothing else, in comparison to it's neighbours- except USSR of course) and the technological disaster for US ( latest model F-14, F-15 and F-16 available to inquiring-and generous-minds anyone? ) if the revolution would have happened say 10 years later...ouch!

Add the 2,000 Shir 2 tanks, etc. The objective of the Shah was clearly (and stated as thus) to develop a force that could defeat a Soviet invasion of Iran as a secondary attack to a war in central Europe. Which isn’t so off the wall as it had been a Soviet objective for years to get control over Iran.

My understanding is they had 32F-4D , 177 F-4E, 16 RF-4E delivered, with 31 F-4E and 16 RF-4E on order at the time of the revolution. Btw , wasn't the F-4E production stopped in 1978?
Speaking of imperial Iran , i did found yesterday a site dedicated to it (as far as i can make out , it's mostly in arabic) including the military. I found it hard to navigate the site itself, but if you use google to search for imperial army tanks , airplanes, helicopters etc. and add "shahyad" in the search box, you get some interesting results.

www.shahyad.net
 

Abraham Gubler

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The last F-4Es were ordered in 1978 (78 serials) and the very last one rolled out of the production line 26 October 1979 (for Korea). So there is more than enough room for the 240 additional F-4Es to be ordered by Iran sans revolution and delivered in the 79-81/82 timeframe.
 

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Probably I should add that this is only the model (look at the exhaust nozzle or the smoothness of the fuselage), but there are several reports, that Iran received at least one F-16 for testing from Venezuela. But in this case it can be only Block 15 model.
 

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Another iteration of F-5E seems to be Kosar/Kowsar/Kowsar 88, which seems to be modernization of Azarakhsh. Does anybody know the main differences between it and Azarakhsh?
 

TaiidanTomcat

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Matej said:

This guy builds models so well, and photographs them so admirably that I have seen them featured as the real deal in aviation publications! :D
 

Deino

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Anyone ever heard of 'Qaher 313' ??? ?

Iran to Unveil New Home-Made Fighter Jet Tomorrow
TEHRAN (FNA)- Iran plans to unveil its new home-made fighter jet in an official ceremony due to be held tomorrow.

The Iranian Defense Ministry announced on Friday that President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will unveil the second indigenized Iranian jet fighter named 'Qaher 313' on Saturday.

Last week, Iranian Defense Minister Brigadier General Ahmad Vahidi had announced that his ministry would display several defense achievements in the next few days.

The new achievements will be unveiled during the Ten-Day Dawn ceremonies from January 31 to February 10, celebrating the victory of the Islamic Revolution back in 1979.

The Iranian defense minister announced at the time that Iran would unveil the latest home-made fighter jet in the coming days, and said, "The aircraft will be different from the other fighter jets Iran has already made."

Iran has also taken wide strides in designing and manufacturing different types of light, semi-heavy and heavy weapons, military tools and equipment. Tehran launched an arms development program during the 1980-88 Iraqi imposed war on Iran to compensate for a US weapons embargo. Since 1992, Iran has produced its own tanks, armored personnel carriers, missiles and fighter planes.

Yet, Iranian officials have always stressed that the country's military and arms programs serve defensive purposes and should not be perceived as a threat to any other country.

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9107140712

Deino
 

Reaper

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Sounds interesting!! But I have the feeling, that if they will show something it will be a tweak to an existing plane. Maybe an IF-14!?
 

kaiserbill

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Re: Iranian Qaher-313 "indigenous fighter jet"

In a way, a more conventional airframe such as the models posted above might have proven a more fruitful path than the one chosen for the Qaher-313.

Unless that airframe is actually an excercise in disinformation, a UAV, or concept demonstrator for a light strike platform.
 

kaiserbill

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On the topic of Iranian indigineous fighters, we were wondering earlier whether it wouldn't have been better giving their existing fleet a deep modernisation in the interim.

It appears that movement toward this is happening.
The F-4D's are apparently undergoing a deep modernisation using Chinese and Iranian components..
The Dowran Phase 1 upgrade involves avionics, Phase 2 involves armament.
MFD's in both front and rear cockpits, Chinese radar and HUD, PL-7 IR and PL-12 BVRAAM, new RWR and chaff dispensors, and rewiring of the airframe.
2 airframes have gone through the process already.

Once the limited amount of F-4D's have gone through the cycle, the more numerous F-4E's will go through.

Link with pictures. Halfway down is an article from CombatAircraft with more details.
http://www.iranmilitaryforum.net/air-forces/iriaf-f-4s/275/

This is what should have happened long time ago.
If this programme is a success and is completed, you'd think the F-14 and Mig-29 airframes would also benefit from a similar programme.
 

lancer21

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Maybe this will worth posting in the Qaher-313 thread. I'm sure the more gifted drawers here can do a better job , this is not mine , found on the net:
 

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chuck4

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kaiserbill said:
On the topic of Iranian indigineous fighters, we were wondering earlier whether it wouldn't have been better giving their existing fleet a deep modernisation in the interim.

It appears that movement toward this is happening.
The F-4D's are apparently undergoing a deep modernisation using Chinese and Iranian components..
The Dowran Phase 1 upgrade involves avionics, Phase 2 involves armament.
MFD's in both front and rear cockpits, Chinese radar and HUD, PL-7 IR and PL-12 BVRAAM, new RWR and chaff dispensors, and rewiring of the airframe.
2 airframes have gone through the process already.

Once the limited amount of F-4D's have gone through the cycle, the more numerous F-4E's will go through.

Link with pictures. Halfway down is an article from CombatAircraft with more details.
http://www.iranmilitaryforum.net/air-forces/iriaf-f-4s/275/

This is what should have happened long time ago.
If this programme is a success and is completed, you'd think the F-14 and Mig-29 airframes would also benefit from a similar programme.


Replacing 1960s avionics with commercial Chinese avionics would offer very useful improvements to some aspects of legacy airframe's capabilities, but won't help them learn the skills needed to design airframes and implement control systems.


They should consider making substantial aerodynamic changes to legacy airframes similar to what had been done with the mirage iii and mirage v. This would get them some practice in airframe design.


As to f-14, it probably offer some unique capabilities that can not be preserved with off the shelve Chinese avionics.
 

sienar

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lancer21 said:
Maybe this will worth posting in the Qaher-313 thread. I'm sure the more gifted drawers here can do a better job , this is not mine , found on the net:


This drawing looks way off when compared to this screen grab from on of the iranian videos.


I thinking of taking a stab at making a basic 3d model of this odd bird, so I might produce some drawings too.
 

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hesham

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Deino said:
Iran "unveiled" today two models of stealthy types ... one UAV and one combat type !

How realistic they are is open to anyones own gues ... drawings made by "planeman" (via ACIG)

Deino


My dear Deino,


here is anther picture to Flatfish UCAV.
 

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Spook

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Abraham Gubler said:
It would actually be an interesting endeavour to research up a full list of Iran's weaponry acquisition plans that were scuppered by the revolution.

Sorry to be off-topic again :-[

Its been a while that i am working on this kind of list. For Iran and a few other countries. Some interesting stuff are there on my Iran's list such as:
IIAF's interest in TSR.2, B-1A, SAAB 37 for IRIAF (the acquisition happened back in 80s during the war) and goes on..
However as Grey mentioned, i am still looking to find more information whether Shah was interested something similar as 747 cruise missile carrier.

Regards,
Ak
 

GTX

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Interesting testbed for the HESA Saeqeh or Azarakhsh:
 

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Eagle2009

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GTX,

Actually that modified Tu-154M was/is for testing Iranian-built ejector seats (as opposed to relying on ground-based tests). As far as is publicly known, it has nothing to do with the Saeghe/Azarakhsh projects and simply used an actual F-5 nose-section/cockpit (likely because of size reasons).
 

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Grey Havoc

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Spotted over at MilitaryPhotos.net: http://www.janes.com/article/47766/iran-begins-mass-production-of-saeghe-fighter


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3399.0.html
 

Eagle2009

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ALCON,


Never fails, a Jane's article full of errors and outstanding clueless-ness!


Where does one even start..


- There have been SEVEN confirmed Saeghe aircraft for a at least a year now (as confirmed by unique serial #s), not three as the article reports.
- No evidence has ever been provided to confirmed the rumor that a Venezuelan F-16 was even supplied to Iran for reverse-engineering. This theory has refuted in at least one Combat Aircraft Monthly article in the last year or so and isn't even taken seriously by a true die-hards at the IMF!
- Should be remembered that it was Jane's who popularized the idiotic theory that the "Azarakhsh" fighter concept was somehow a F-5 fitted with TWO RD-33 engines and Russian N019 radar back in the 90s! This description is STILL prevalent to this day all over the internet..
 

lancer21

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So here it is, the F-5F with twin tails, the Saeqeh-2. That makes a total of 7 F-5s (Eagle, wasn't the first Saeqeh numbered twice, second time being after it has been brought to the same standard as the rest, i.e normal F-5E nose and intakes?) converted with twin tails since 2004. What a waste. (and in saying that, no, i am definitely not part of nor what to be associated with the Iran - or Russia or China and so on- "hate" group on here, just wanted to make that clear)
Does anyone know if Babak Taghvaiee is a member here, usually he has very interesting things to say about the background of "projects" such as this. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4kyBsj37v4

Pictures:
http://mod.ir/content/
 

Eagle2009

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Lancer21,


Negative, the "original" Saeghe (3-7366) retained its original serial number after its nose/intake mod. See attached image for confirmation.


Something to keep in mind concerning the Saeghes is that to my knowledge, ALL 8 airframes now started off life as stored F-5E/F airframes. These airframes were either war-damaged or heavily cannibalized aircraft. As such, the IRIAF hasn't "lost" any operational aircraft to the Saeghe program.


Further, such a "loss" assumes there is something wrong with the Saeghe program's modifications to the original F-5E design.


BT is an active member on a few forums, including the ACIG Forum, for which he has posted some interesting tidbits about the program. I thought he was a member of this forum as well so he might make an appearance. I know he mentioned that he and Tom Cooper's coming book about Iranian F-5s will include information on the Saeghe program and its possible future.


Concerning this Saeghe-2, there are a few interesting tidbits that have been identified from the many pics and videos posted:
- New Ejection Seats- Very similar to K-36L in appearance and similar to an ejection seat seen on public display a few months back in Iran. Likely the product of their Tu-154 Testbed project.
- New antennas behind the cockpit. These are different than the "Skyspot" seen on factory-built F-5Fs.


Any other modifications, such as an updated cockpit (strongly hinted at from an Iranian arms exhibition a few months ago), can not be discerned with the images available at this time.
 

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riggerrob

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Re: Two Tails TigerⅡ

A similar looking trainer was proposed by a Canadian company, but it never made it to the prototype stage.
 

Sundog

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Re: Two Tails TigerⅡ

riggerrob said:
A similar looking trainer was proposed by a Canadian company, but it never made it to the prototype stage.
That was the Venga TG-10.
 

Motocar

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Deino said:
.... any idea what's that ??? Maybe I missed the conclusion that it was once again a PS ... but if I remember correct, this picture was posted only one time and then forgotten !

the last drawing I found somewhere in the www ....

cheers, Deino ???

I Have the cutaway speculative drawing this S80 model
 

Motocar

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Shared the promise...!
Speculative cutaway drawing S80
 

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Motocar

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Repost thread Motocar's Cutaway drawings in the section User Arwork

Cutaway HESA Saeqeh, the Iranian fighter made starting from the copy of the Norhtrop F-5E by reverse engineering, with changes in the drifts. These are now two but of smaller area, Iran in its propaganda manifests that it is an advanced fighter developed by its technicians and engineers, in the same is exposed with a set of weapons speculatively specs cirscunscripts to which Iran can access after the long blockade, M. Badrocke car and retouched by Motocar.
 

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Foo Fighter

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fightingirish

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Iran Kowsar 88 Supersonic Advanced Trainer/Light Strike Aircraft Unveiled
Video:
https://youtu.be/q1Mfn-hCAw4
Code:
https://youtu.be/q1Mfn-hCAw4
Just one placeholder on the starboard side for a M39 cannon so far.
 

Vahe Demirjian

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The above-mentioned photo posted by someone who started this thread is no longer on the HESA Azarakhsh page at Wikipedia, if anyone's aware.
 

fightingirish

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On October 15th was probably the first flight of the Iranian trainer jet aircraft Kowsar-88, now renamed as the Yasin.
Link with a picture:
Video:
Code:
https://youtu.be/HjgLZWH4xQA
 

kaiserd

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Am I wrong or does that undercarriage appear to be fixed?
 

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What is the point of Iranian engineered aircraft? Iran will never have the industrial capacity to build its own advanced military. Why wouldn't they just buy stuff from Russia and china? It would be cheaper, right or wrong?

I understand countries like South Korea and Japan having indigenous capabilities. But a country like Iran?
 

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Iran is under sanctions. For the most part, russia and china do not want to sell weapons to iran. Save for some odd momentary lapse in international relations, like it was the case with the s300 sale. Basically, it has no one to turn to in order to buy weapons.
 

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