Justo Miranda

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Please see "rockets canon" at http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6004.0/highlight,r4m.html

Post-3 drawing "escanear 0006"
 

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boxkite said:
After the War during the 50' Siegfried Günter of the Ernst Heinkel AG , Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen, designed some delta jet fighters :
- He 011 (1954) single jet for Egypt
- He 011 twin jets
- He S 7
- He 021 (or 012 ? ) (1955) for Spain ( Casa CH 101 in Spain )
- He 031 Florett (1957)
For all of them my knowledge is very scarce ,whith some ? ; I have pics of them apart the He 021
Who have more info ?

The following three fighter-interceptors have been shortly described in Köhler’s “Ernst Heinkel – Pionier der Schnellflugzeuge” (“Die deutsche Luftfahrt“ vol 5), but the author causes confusion, speaking of a He 021 in the appendix and of a He 031 in the caption of the three-view drawing ...

He 011- projected for Egypt (it’s your turn, hesham)
- delta wing
- 1 x Heinkel He S 053 / 1 x 6,500 kp
- span 11.50 m
- length 14.75 m
- wing area 57.50 m²
- gross weight 12,000 kg
- speed Mach 1.2
- year 1956
- Antonio has sent me the attached model picture (from AIR Enthusiast or AIR International?) – the width of the nose and the position of the air intakes is different compared with the drawing.

He 012 (= C 101 -> for Spain –> Antonio, is there more about this project in Manuel Lage’s “Hispano Suiza 1904 - 1972: Hombres, Empresas, Motores y Aviones”?)
- delta wing
- 1 x Bristol Orpheus / 1 x 2,500 kp
- span 6.78 m
- length 9.95 m
- wing area 20.00 m²
- gross weight 3,900 kg
- speed Mach 1.2
- year 1956

He 021 (or He 031 ???) “Florett (i. e. ‘foil’)
- Heinkel’s entry for the first German postwar competition requiring an interceptor (November 1956), the “Florett” was developed by a team headed by Siegfried Günter, this proposal was the winner, but the tactical requirement changed – the German Ministry of Defence wanted to get fighters with VTOL capability … (-> He 231 -> VJ 101A -> VJ 101C)
- 1 x D.H. Gyron Junior plus 1 x D.H. Spectre / 1 x 3,220 kp plus 3,632 kp
- span 8.64 m
- length 13.17 m
- wing area 23.12 m²
- gross weight 5,200 kg
- speed Mach 1.2
- year 1957

Heinkel S 7 – Heinkel S … is a engine designation for me, but I’m not very familiar with this line.
Siegfried Günter was from 1945 to mid 1950, a russian 'paperclip', he worked on the DFS 486, and brought back from Russia a design with
many features of the Sukhoi design buro.The same thing for Brunhof Baade (Junkers) that came back in DDR with the Model 150.
 

Petrus

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Very interesting.
I'm afraid however that the British 3-inch rockets with 60lb heads wouldn't be used. The Spanish air force had the 80 mm Oerlikon rockets and these would have armed the Heinkel fighter.

Best regards,
Piotr
 

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SURE STEPHAN !

A drawing from Dassault circa 1950
 

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hesham

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Hi,


in Royal Air Force museum of UK site,a section of aircraft A-Z,which closed from while,
they wrote that Heinkel had a postwar project,called P.1130,did any one hear about
it ?,they never mention any Info or details,and may be it was a fighter !.
 

hesham

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PaulMM (Overscan) said:
A very nice article on an interesting Heinkel project of the mid/late 1950s was in the December 2007 issue of Flugzeug Classic. Tiny thumbnails including below to whet your appetites.


Excuse me my dear Paul,


I repeat displaying your pictures from the same source,to be bigger.
 

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hesham

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Hi,


from Flugzeug Classic 7/2009,here is the Heinkel He.231 variants.
 

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fightingirish

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hesham

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From Le Fana 478,

here is the Heinkel He.231 in one piece.
 

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blackkite

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Hi! VJ-101A wind tunnel test model and display model.

http://www.wind-tunnel-models.com/wind_tunnel_model_Heinkel_VJ101.html

https://kplanes.tumblr.com/post/136896926310/k-planes-episode-90-strike-fighters
 

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blackkite

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And VJ-101A6.

http://www.wind-tunnel-models.com/wind_tunnel_model_Heinkel_VJ101_A6.html

Home
http://www.wind-tunnel-models.com/index.html#Heinkel_VJ101
 

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Richard N

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Unicraft Models has a few pictures of what they call the He-231-2 and a build up of their model: http://www.unicraft.biz/germ/he231-2/he231-2.htm
 

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Petrus

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At a Russian form I've found two pictures of He-031 wind tunnel model as well as a photo of a nose section of what is apparently a mock-up. A member of the forum who posted them said something like that: "A Heinkel, but not exactly 031".
Obviously it is not He-031 nose, but what is it actually? Perhaps it is a part of a mock-up of the "Egyptian" big delta-wing fighter bomber?
Any ideas?
 

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hesham

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My dear Petrus,

as I know or all I know that Heinkel developed to Egypt the He .011,012 & 031,but it was
very close to 031,maybe anther variant ?.
 

Petrus

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I've meant the design known as He-011.

Here I've gathered very few pictures of it (most of them already published in our forum), in two I've marked up what seems to be the gun ports (which may be seen clearly in the mock-up photo I posted earlier). It was they that made me think the mock-up photo shows the He-011.

Besides here are pictures (containg data) on He S 053 engine that was to power the fighter for Egypt.

Piotr
 

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Petrus

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3_60-jpg.577173


Here you've got the photo that I did post some time ago when I had found it in a Russian forum (https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/heinkel-postwar-fighters.1122/post-303332). Now the photo comes from the "Flugzeug Archiv Band 5". Its caption refers to the aircraft as "the second version of the Heinkel interceptor S 7". Leaving aside the "S 7" designation, it seems quite interesting that there was "the second version" of the project. So obviously there must have been also the first version thereof.



Piotr
 
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TsrJoe

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Very nice Piotr, do you know of any drawings of the delta design intended for Egypt ? would make for an interesting model
 

hesham

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3_60-jpg.577173


Here you've got the photo that I did post some time ago when I had found it in a Russian forum (https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/heinkel-postwar-fighters.1122/post-303332). Now the photo comes from the "Flugzeug Archiv Band 5". Its caption refers to the aircraft as "the second version of the Heinkel interceptor S 7". Leaving aside the "S 7" designation, it seems quite interesting that there was "the second version" of the project. So obviously there must have been also the first version thereof.



Piotr


Nice find my dear Petrus.
 

Petrus

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Very nice Piotr, do you know of any drawings of the delta design intended for Egypt ? would make for an interesting model

I'm afraid I don't know, ufortunately. By the way it seems a little bit strange that there is apparently no publications on the Heinkel project(s) for Egypt while we have at least a quite decent monograph of the He-031 Florett in the Flugzeug Classic (issue 12/2007) and an exhaustive article on the He-021/CASA C-101 in the Aeroplano magazine. As for the Deltajäger for Egypt only bits and pieces of information are available.

P.
 

Yankee_Aviator

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I've meant the design known as He-011.

Here I've gathered very few pictures of it (most of them already published in our forum), in two I've marked up what seems to be the gun ports (which may be seen clearly in the mock-up photo I posted earlier). It was they that made me think the mock-up photo shows the He-011.

Besides here are pictures (containg data) on He S 053 engine that was to power the fighter for Egypt.

Piotr
Is there any more information on the HeS 053? I've tried looking it up but there is NOTHING on the internet about this engine. Also why wasn't it considered for the Florett? I've read the Gyron Jr. was selected because of a lack of available German engines, but I've read conversely that the HeS 053 was ready for testing, and it would have offered more power than the Gyron Jr. Was the Heinkel engine scrapped after the deal with Egypt fell through?
 

Pioneer

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3_60-jpg.577173


Here you've got the photo that I did post some time ago when I had found it in a Russian forum (https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/heinkel-postwar-fighters.1122/post-303332). Now the photo comes from the "Flugzeug Archiv Band 5". Its caption refers to the aircraft as "the second version of the Heinkel interceptor S 7". Leaving aside the "S 7" designation, it seems quite interesting that there was "the second version" of the project. So obviously there must have been also the first version thereof.



Piotr
Wow, one would think the firing of those cannons in the position they are would have blinded the pilot at night.

Regards
Pioneer
 

Petrus

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Here you've got a colourful drawing of the He-012 (by a contemporary 'alternate history' artist), which is quite interesting as such. What is really fascinating, however, hides in the picture's background: an original drawing, dated 1955, in which you may see 3-view drawings as well as cross-sections. Unfortunately they are obscured by the colour drawing and its captions. By the way that is the He-012 version whose drawing has already been posted here (albeit named wrongly as the He-011).
Please note that the drawing is designated as 012-113-01 and that showing armament options, dated 1956 bears a designation 012-113-05. Apparently the later version differs from that of 1955, at least in the shape of its wings and the armament (the 1955 version carries 2 cannon, the 1956 version has 4 cannon or 2 cannon plus underwing ordnance).

Question is whether anyone here knows the source from which comes the drawing in the background of the colour pictures (a Spanish publicaction I suspect). Any input would be highly appreciated.

Piotr
 

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klem

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In a very short time after the war, i find that german avionics engineering has not lost all its bearings.Der adler fliegt immer noch hoch am himmel.
 

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He 021 (or He 031 ???) “Florett (i. e. ‘foil’)
- Heinkel’s entry for the first German postwar competition requiring an interceptor (November 1956), the “Florett” was developed by a team headed by Siegfried Günter, this proposal was the winner, but the tactical requirement changed – the German Ministry of Defence wanted to get fighters with VTOL capability
I'm not sure that that information is correct. If the aircraft was designed in 1957 but never came to fruition, that can only mean one thing... it lost to the F-104 in 1958. Pretty crazy to think Germany could have potentially been flying an indigenous fighter design for much of the early Cold War instead of the F-104. Quite a shame too in my opinion.
 

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I have found no references about what would have been He-012 designation if it would have series produced by CASA.
I read it was given the designation "C-7" by the Spanish air ministry. Messerschmitt's HA-300 received the designation "C-6". Also from what I've read, Spain lost interest in the HA-300 after the glider failed (I'm guessing it had aerodynamic stability issues). At this point Egypt expressed interest in the fighter and Messerschmitt's team packed up and moved to Helwan. I don't know the details surrounding the move to Egypt.
 

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You may find interesting that Willy Radinger and Walter Schick in their "Secret Messerschmitt Projects" say the engine for the He-011, the aircraft designed for Egypt, was to have a static thrust of 5880 kp and 8100 kp with afterburner.
I've been very curious about this. The so called Heinkel Strahltriebwerke HeS 053, there exists almost no data about it online, I have found all of three pictures of the engine, one of which has specifications, if the claimed thrust rating was true, this engine would have been an absolute monster for its time. But given the utter lack of any information about it I've begun to question whether it was even real, whether the thrust specifications were just ambitious goals. If anyone has any information about this engine, I'd be very pleased to learn about it.
Also, if it was real, I have to wonder why the He 031 was designed to use the Gyron Junior instead of this engine. Was it destroyed along with the blueprints after Egypt cancelled the contract for the He 011? 131797-804419dd20b256dbfa6f5e5572e5a6d7.png images.jpeg 53.png
 

hesham

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Also, if it was real, I have to wonder why the He 031 was designed to use the Gyron Junior instead of this engine. Was it destroyed along with the blueprints after Egypt cancelled the contract for the He 011?

From where you got this ?.
 

Yankee_Aviator

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Also, if it was real, I have to wonder why the He 031 was designed to use the Gyron Junior instead of this engine. Was it destroyed along with the blueprints after Egypt cancelled the contract for the He 011?

From where you got this ?.
There's a wikipedia article, unfortunately only in German, but fortunately there is a translated version here: https://second.wiki/wiki/heinkel_he_031
It claims that the HeS 053 was "ready for testing" and that a full scale mockup of the Egyptian fighter was prepared by Heinkel engineers in Helwan. It goes on to say that after Egypt withdrew its order, the project was cancelled. It does not state anything about the engine beyond the fact that it had an 11 stage compressor and 2 stage turbine, the thrust rating, and weight of the engine. I am left to ASSUME that it was destroyed, I have no firsthand sources that definitively say what happened to the engine, that is the mystery that I am trying to clear up. I'm questioning if the engine was ever even real. This article says that the Florett was to use a British DeHavilland Gyron Jr. engine, which is curious considering Heinkel supposedly would have still retained the designs of the HeS 053, or if not, his engineering team would have retained the knowledge and would have been able to create another, similar engine from scratch if the blueprints were destroyed. The fact that the Florett was designed to use a British engine instead of Heinkel's inhouse engine from just a few years prior definitely makes me suspicious that the HeS 053 never really existed.
 
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