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German HS 30 Prototypes, Derivatives and Projects

Jemiba

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Probably no need to post more infos about this HS30 derivative, just
3 additional photos of the Kanonen-Jagdpanzer and another use of
the 90mm gun in the prototype of the "Spähpanzer mit Turm und 90mm
Kanone" (Recce tank with turreted 90mm gun)
(all photos from Werner Oswald "Kraftfahrzeuge und Panzer der Reichswehr, Wehrmacht und Bundeswehr")
 

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smurf

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Armoured fighting vehicles of the world by C F Foss published 1971 includes a 25-ton tank developed by Henschel, W Germany.
there are brief details of a 1964 first prototype, and a photo of the 1967 version.
Does anyone have drawings of either, and/or details of how and why the 1967 version differed from the 1964 prototype, please?
 

smurf

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The photo caption in Foss's book simply says "Spahpanzer, Model 1967". It is a Henschel design.

My scanner is out of action. Imagine a 5-wheeled Jagdpanzer Kanone, JPZ 4-5 with, instead of the fixed 90mm gun and crew compartment forward, has instead a low turret (a bit like a Leopard 1 turret) mounting the same 90mm gun with muzzle brake.
Best I can offer until the scanner works.
I googled for pictures with no success.
 

shokaku

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Probably, was the HWK-12: information and photos of the AFV family is in the topic

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,910.0.html
 

smurf

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No, not these. I started that thread. But thanks.
In the thread it says both HWK12 turret to rear of vehicle, and HWK12 not built. HWK series about 14-15tons.
Spahpanzer was a 25ton tank, turret like a Leopard 1 turret, well forward, and the photo in Foss's book shows it certainly was built.
 

JohnR

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Could it have been based on the Jaguar chassis?

The 1964 version could have been based on the original chassis, and the 1967 version based on the Marder components like the Belgian version. It could also be a concept that could have evolved into the TAM??

Just speculating.

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JohnR

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Found something that adds credence to my theory.

Janes World Fighting Vehicles, 1976, Christopher Foss

Listed under other members of the original family of the Marder

"Spahpanzer - based on the Jagdpanzer Kanoone chassis, prototype built, no production, role taken over by Leopard and new 8 x 8 Spahpanzer."


Regards
 

smurf

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Apologies. I hadn't expected the Spahpanzer to be so little known.
Foss's book I referred to does in fact have tables of basic data for Spahpanzer, for Jagdpanzer Kanone and Rackete, and for Schutzenpanzer Neu, Marder, making clear that they are related, but the Marder was developed from the others, JPZ dating from the 1950s. Marder has a 6-wheeled chassis, the others 5.
What I was hoping for was clarification of any differences between the 1964 and 1967 versions of Spahpanzer.
There does seem to be a lack of more detailed information generally about AFVs from the 1950s and 1960s, especially prototypes.
The 1974 edition of Foss's book mentions an AA vehicle in the series. Crow and Icks "Encyclopedia of Tanks" has a small picture: 5 wheel chassis, dimensions 19' 8.5" x 9'8 x 8' 1.5" with a small twin 30mm turret at the rear (which means turned round compared to the Spahpanzer). Four built. "Production vehicles to be on a Leopard chassis" but I know nothing more of that.
My scanner still insists that another computer is using it, but Foss's book is Ian Allan anyway, though the same Spahpanzer picture, smaller, is in Crow & Icks.
 

Apophenia

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Sorry smurf, I had a photo of the Spähpanzer on my hard drive but must have dumped it. BTW, I see refs to this vehicle weighing 28-t. Could that weight change also be the difference between the 1963 and 1967 models?

JohnR: as smurf said, these vehicles are related. All were part of a planned 8-member leichten Panzer familie. The spähpanzer seems only to have received generic names: Spähpanzer Kette (as per Bundeswehr M41s) or Spähpanzer mit 90mm Bordkanone.

For images, see: http://preservedtanks.com/Types.aspx?TypeCategoryId=370&Select=1

Another puzzle: with a prototype of the Spähpanzer Kette extant, why did Thyssen Henschel bother to reinvent the wheel (track? ;D) with the TAM/TH-301?
 

JohnR

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Really interesting.

The Kette does look very much like a Leo Light.

Thanks for that link to preservedtanks - never seen that before.

Regards.
 

smurf

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Thanks for that, and the very interesting link.
My photo of spahpanzer is a near side-view, which shows clearly just how far forward the turret was.
 

Apophenia

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smurf: is this the Spähpanzer photo you have? I stumbled across this while looking for something else on the WHQ Forum. They said it was the RU 251 Spähpanzer prototype.
 

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smurf

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Thanks very much for the picture, Apophenia.
It's not quite the same as mine, which is slightly from the front quarter, but same side.
Yours has a row of four smoke dischargers (?) at the rear of the turret.
Mine has two, I think, one above the other. It's only a small photo.
Mine also has three grab handles along the turret, instead of one.
Your rear road wheel looks to be a different pattern to the other four. Mine not.
The hatches, fittings on the forward turret top look a bit different too, but its hard to be sure, it may just be canvas covers.
Again hard to be sure, but your front idler wheel looks smaller than the rear drive sprocket, while I think mine is the same size.

Mine is definitely labelled Model 1967. It rather looks as though yours is the first prototype 1964.
My "multifunction" !? scanner still won't talk to my computer, although its printer function is OK.
I realise I didn't post any details.
The ones I have are for the 1964 version, although my picture in the same book is the 1967 one.
20' 4 5/8" x 9' 9 1/4" x 8' 2" high
Ground clearance 16 7/8in ground pressure 9.95psi
4 crew, 52,900lbs loaded.speed 49.7mph on road
Gradient 60%; Vertical obstacle 29.5in; trench 8ft; fording 4' 11"
cruising range 341 (miles I suppose, no units, a bit less than the 372 quoted for the Marder 1)
all units probably converted from metric
Armament a 90mm gun (as in JPZ 4-5 I'm fairly sure) 7.62mm co-axial mg and 7.62mm AA
Daimler-Benz diesel, 500hp.

Did your site say what RU251 means, and does it have a date for the picture?
 

Apophenia

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smurf: thanks for the specs. The photo I posted was part of an ID quiz so few details. The entire exchange was:

Waldteufel: "RU 251, Prototyp SpPz mit 90mm BK?"

BigGrizzly: "Spähpanzer Prototyp hätte mir gereicht, mehr gab meine Quelle nicht her... Ach doch, 90mm war mir auch bekannt. Der Bedarf an 'Spähpanzern' wurde dann doch durch "geschenkte" M41er oder freiwerdende M47er gedeckt, wimre."


http://www.whq-forum.de/invisionboard/index.php?showtopic=28015&st=660

The RU 251 would be a Ruhrstahl design number (RU 261 and RU 362 were their IFV concept with the leichten Panzerfamilie, the latter being the basis for the SPz Marder). During this period, Ruhrstahl becomes Rheinstahl and, later, Thyssen Henschel (Thyssen acquired a majority interest in Rheinstahl AG in '73).

Nothing about the gun (and it doesn't get much more generic than "Bordkanone"!). I'm guessing that it was the same DEFA piece as in "HS 30 mit 90mm Bord K".

The reproduction quality is awful but, as you say, the front idler does look slightly smaller than the drive sprocket. Odd that the number of smoke grenade launchers went down over time.
 

smurf

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Thanks for that. Given what you say about RU designation, it seems fairly sure yours is the first protype, while mine is the later version.
 

smurf

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I did a search for HS30 and found this thread:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4033.msg31742.html#msg31742
The picture of the Spahpanzer is the one in Foss's book, but printed the other way round. Note the 1963 date in its caption.
This link did not come up in my search for spahpanzer. How do you put the umlaut on?
 

Apophenia

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smurf: about umlauts, I just cut-and-paste 'em (lacking the appropriate keyboard).

Jens' Spähpanzer looks much like the WHQ one. I see what you mean about the drive sprocket looking smaller from the side. But the pattern is the same so maybe just a trick of perspective?

The grab bars you mention are in evidence as is the different smoke launcher (I see four per side in the 1963 but arranged in two pairs instead of in a straight row). For some reason (weight gain?), the rearmost roadwheel on the 1967 version is 'solid' whereas the 1963 version has all the same pattern.
 

smurf

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I thought your photo showed the small front sprocket, and yours is about square-on, so I don't think it is a perspective effect.
My rear sprocket looks smaller than the front one, through perspective, but I don't think correcting for perspective would be enough to produce the relative sizes in yours. Look at it as a fraction of the nearby roadwheel.
I've looked again in Crow & Icks. It's the same Foss picture but only 5cm long (Foss way round, gun pointing left,) labelled RU251 Spaeh Pz, 1966 light reconnaissance tank, 20'4.5" x 9' 9" x 8' 10". Nothing else at all, which is why I've relied on Foss's book.
Compare Foss 20' 4 5/8" x 9' 9 1/4" x 8' 2" high. I'd not noticed the different height figure before.
Foss (editor of Jane's) says his figures relate to the 1964 version, the picture to 1967, so the dates are a bit confusing.
 

Apophenia

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Okay, so if the front idler and drive sprockets are different, the tracks themselves are almost certainly different as well. Both the SPz Marder and JPz 4-5 used Diehl tracks (828A and 828G, respectively).

Do we have any Diehl experts on board? :) If so, care to glance at Jens' Spähpanzer image?

According to Jane's, Henschel built two JPz 4-5 prototypes in 1960-62, three more in 1962-63, and a further three in 1963-65 (of the other prototypes, eight were built by Hanomag, the other by Mowag).

By the date of first Spähpanzer prototype, we can assume a close relationship with the second series JPz 4-5 prototypes (1962-63). And, presumably, the second/revised Spähpanzer prototype -- although the photo is dated 1966 -- is more closely related to the third series JPz 4-5 prototypes (1963-65).

I know ... that's a lot of assumptions :p
 

Priory_of_Sion

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I know some basic info on this vehicle but what are the specifications on it. I know it was an early 60s attempt by West Germany to create a light tank for scouting duties but was never adopted due to the Leopard 1. It had the same 90mm gun from the kannonjagdpanzer and was to replace the M41 Walker Bulldog.
Handler.ashx
 

TomS

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There is another thread discussing this vehicle. Not a lot appears to be known, which seems odd given that two examples still exist.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6947.0
 

Jemiba

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Another photo is shown in Werner Oswald "Kraftfahrzeuge und Panzer der Reichswehr, Wehrmacht und Bundeswehr",
but the only information given is, that it was a prototype with a 90 mm gun frm 1963.
 

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Jemiba

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Appropriate topics and posts about this vehicle merged here. As an addition from „Typenkompass Artillerie-,
Panzer- und Luftabwehrsysteme der Bundeswehr“, by K.Anweiler and M. Pahlkötter , the Flakpanzer Z 30
(AAA tank) from the '70s, based on the chassis RU 222 from the HS 30. Weight problems led to the system
being transferred to a Leopard 1 chassis and then the 30 mm calibre was replaced by the 35 mm gun
 

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Pioneer

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Nice find on the Flakpanzer Z 30 Jemiba!!
Is this (was this) its actual designation? I'm a big fan of the German Gepard SPAAG design and principle!
Does anyone else have anything on this Flakpanzer Z 30 design/program, as I'm unable to find much on the web :mad:

Regards
Pioneer
 

Jemiba

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"Z 30" is a designation given in the mentioned book, besides the slightly longer one "Flakpanzer
30-mm-Zwilling auf Truppenversuchsmuster RU 222". It's mentioned in Walter Spielberger "Deutsche
Flakpanzer seit 1945", too, as "30-mm-Flakzwilling auf Fahrgestell SPz HS 30", you can find the index
here: http://d-nb.info/204412412/04 . And it is mentioned and shown in Waffenarsenal Bd.106 "SPz
Marder und seine Varianten".
So, not sure at all, that "Z 30" actually was an official designation. BTW, an interesting overview of the
history of the HS 30 can be found here, unfortunately in German language only :
http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/image/show.html?did=46209459&aref=image036/2006/03/09/PPM-SP196704700600082.pdf&thumb=false
 

Pioneer

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Thank you Jemiba !!

Regards
Pioneer
 

xiaofan

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Found these pretty pictures in my file. Do not ask where these pictures come form, I do not remember.
 

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xiaofan

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Also found these on Flickr. Swiss Cheetah Kanonenjagdpanzer produced by MOWAG.
 

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Jemiba

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Another HS 30 derivative shown in „Typenkompass Artillerie-, Panzer- und Luftabwehrsysteme der Bundeswehr“
was an installation of a twin Oerlikon drumfed rocket launcher of 110 mm calibre. In the end, the multiple
barrel rocket launcher LARS 1 (RakW 110F) was chosen instead.
 

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xiaofan

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These are labeled as Kanonenjagdpanzer prototype.
 

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Jemiba

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Pictures 3 and 4 definitely show a prototype. It's a Henschel/Rheinstahl example with 6 roadwhels,
which is shown today at the "Panzermuseum Munster" (tank museum Munster). Introduced into
service was the version built by Hanomag with 5 roadwheels.
 

SPW

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Hello,
‘Does anyone have detailed dimensioned drawings of the SPz 12-3 HS30? I’m especially looking for cross-sections; in particular the HS30 turret.
Detailed drawings of the inside of the turret.
Any help would be gratefully received.
 

uk 75

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The West German Army had the first infantry fighting vehicle in service in NATO
The vehicle certainly had a colourful history. The Wiki does not mention its likely WW2 design origins or the proposed light tank version which looked like an E family vehicle
 

DiePanzerKanone

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The West German Army had the first infantry fighting vehicle in service in NATO
The vehicle certainly had a colourful history. The Wiki does not mention its likely WW2 design origins or the proposed light tank version which looked like an E family vehicle
As far as I know the HS.30 was mostly inspired by the M39 AUV, what was the proposed light tank design?
 

uk 75

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I don't think the RU 251 was based on the HS.30 chassis, compare the suspension
No I think it used the Spz Neu chassis. But it and the HS30 look very like the sort of designs that appeared at the end of WW2. Henschel were in the same business.
see this thread
Sorry, what was the Spz Neu?
There was a family advertised I think by Henschel based on the 90mm tank destroyer and ss11 missile carrier and the early Marder before it was called Marder.
Read more here in German
 

DiePanzerKanone

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I don't think the RU 251 was based on the HS.30 chassis, compare the suspension
No I think it used the Spz Neu chassis. But it and the HS30 look very like the sort of designs that appeared at the end of WW2. Henschel were in the same business.
see this thread
Sorry, what was the Spz Neu?
There was a family advertised I think by Henschel based on the 90mm tank destroyer and ss11 missile carrier and the early Marder before it was called Marder.
Read more here in German
Ah, so the RU 251 chassis was derived from the Kanonenjagdpanzer
 

JohnR

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The turret on the Flakpanzer resembles the one on the Vickers Falcon?
 

Space Cadet

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I don't think the RU 251 was based on the HS.30 chassis, compare the suspension
No I think it used the Spz Neu chassis. But it and the HS30 look very like the sort of designs that appeared at the end of WW2. Henschel were in the same business.
see this thread
Sorry, what was the Spz Neu?
There was a family advertised I think by Henschel based on the 90mm tank destroyer and ss11 missile carrier and the early Marder before it was called Marder.
Read more here in German
Ah, so the RU 251 chassis was derived from the Kanonenjagdpanzer
The RU chassis is similar to the later Kanonenjagdpanzer, indeed. Here you can read more in German


But there were real developments from the HS 30 with 90mm gun, first a light tank with turret, see here


second a smaller Kanonenjagdpanzer, that had too cramped a crew compartment, similar to the first Raketenjagdpanzer based on HS, see here 21.jpg
 
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