France-Germany-Spain Future Combat Air System (FCAS/SCAF/FSAC)

Deltafan

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As your "source" did no say anything about the today's situation of "black boxes" on the F-35, to compare with the Dassault politic in the NGF, I found and showed two sources to permit to other readers to compare.

And thank you for bringing up the subject to allow that for us :)
First : It's communes understanding that Israelis F-35s use unique systems developed by Israel industry. It has been stated and follow a long line of US airframe (and prior to that French airframe) customized for the IAF specific needs and tactics.

(see how an explanation can take only two lines).
Two lines or 100 pages of "commune understanding" are not a source. It's why I liked the links on the F-35 that I showed above. They are precise and give other sources.

For the other older US airframes in Israel, I already answered in the same way for the F-16 MLU and the German F-4 and F-104).
 
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red admiral

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For F-35 access, the existence of a UK reprogramming lab (and for other countries) kinda gives away that some level of access is available.

The thought that anyone nowadays is going to make significant hardware changes without involving the design authority is pretty laughable given airworthiness implications.
 
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TomcatViP

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Dassault Aviation has never flown a VLO airframe nor does it have any experience to sustain one.
Petit Duc is a sub-scale demonstrator drone (more an RPV than an UAV) that has an alleged RCS bigger than that of a B-2 or a F-117...

Neuron was a Multi-National demonstrator effort with performances that does not qualify as VLO. She had many attribute built as test case without a tactically significant RCS reduction.
My own interpretation of this program (aside of the mistery surrounding her test flight program offshore of South East of France) is what I qualify as being probably the most expensive group therapy the world has ever seen...
(and it didn't succeed as we learned again lately).

So, in effect, again, no experience in the field with something that ascertain the alleged valuable technological advance in VLO aircraft.
 
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TomcatViP

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Neuron was a Multi-National demonstrator effort with performances that does not qualify as VLO. She had many attribute built as test case without a tactically significant RCS reduction.

Nice expert analysis. Source for the parts in blue?
Ths is a very old conversation that was widely discussed already. There is no need to add something here that is available elsewhere. Suffice to say that Dassault itself took (again) the bird comparison to illustrate their objectives with Neuron (there is a ppt circulating around). There was then endless discussions about what surface a bird can be. Let's not duplicate here the idiocy that were there. Suffice to say that a bird is not a golf ball and hence not a tenth or hundred of that, what is needed as a modern VLO.
 

Jemiba

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..."There was then endless discussions about what surface a bird can be. Let's not duplicate here..."

Indeed, so it's time to stop it ! It seems, the quarrel has splashed over now from the Rafale thread to
this one ! Please, stop fanboy discussions like "Dassault fighter aircraft vs. F-35", or face timeouts or bans !
Last call !
 

TomcatViP

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FCAS: French Senate mediation b/w Airbus and Dassault rumored to end soon with an angreement:

Les séances de "psychothérapie" organisées par le Sénat, qui a auditionné séparément les responsables de Dassault Aviation et d'Airbus sur les difficultés rencontrées dans les négociations sur le programme SCAF, a fonctionné au-delà des attentes des partisans de la coopération franco-allemande. Après ce déballage inédit (viril mais correct) sur des négociations en cours, les deux industriels, qui se sont dits publiquement les choses qu'ils devaient se dire, se sont finalement remis au travail de façon plus apaisée pour trouver cet accord de principe, qui n'est pas encore un accord signé. La Tribune n'est d'ailleurs pas en mesure à ce stade de révéler les contours de l'accord.
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The "psychotherapy" sessions organized by the Senate, which interviewed officials of Dassault Aviation and Airbus separately on the difficulties encountered in the negotiations on the SCAF [FCAS] program, worked beyond the expectations of supporters of Franco-German cooperation. After this unprecedented (virile but correct) revelations on current negotiations, the two manufacturers, who expressed publicly things they had to say to each other, finally got back to work in a more peaceful way to find this sketched agreement, which is not yet a signed agreement. La Tribune is also not in a position at this stage to reveal the contours of the agreement.

 
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TomcatViP

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All states have now received a formal offer for the demonstration phase with a first flight in 2026:
"Les Etats ont reçu une offre des industriels concernés pour la réalisation d'un démonstrateur d'un nouvel avion de combat", qui doit voler en 2026 et dont le financement n'est pas encore assuré, indique le cabinet de la ministre.
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"All concerned sates have received an offer for the production of a demonstrator of a new combat aircraft", which is due to fly in 2026 and whose funding is not yet assured, indicates French MoD cabinet.

 

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Airbus is also merging technology and engineering as a result of a cascade of changes resulting from the departures, putting long-term and current research under one roof.


The military aircraft unit will be run by Jean-Brice Dumont, whose current job as head of engineering will be merged with Vittadini's technology role under a single new engineering boss, Sabine Klauke, who moves from defence to the wider role

(edited quotation to add link to Airbus website)
 

TomcatViP

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Two other sources said an agreement was close but more discussions were needed, with IPRs the biggest remaining hurdle.
[...]
Participants will put together a list of IPRs by mid-May, spelling out what can be shared by all partners and what must be kept confidential for specific companies, the source said.
[...]
A French government source said there [] was no deal yet.

Even if a final agreement is reached by mid-May, Berlin may not have time to secure the approval of Germany's powerful parliamentary budget committee ahead of September's federal election. Approval is needed before funds can be spent.

 

Archibald

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NASA has flown an helicopter on Mars

SpaceX had landed their steel monster in one piece

And now, a SCAF agreement.

What a month to be alive... the impossible is becoming possible.
 

TomcatViP

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Not quite yet...
German finance officials flagged several outstanding hurdles in a report on FCAS to lawmakers earlier this year. For one, a French request to except certain French intellectual property concessions, classified as “specific foreground information,” from the overall sharing architecture had raised eyebrows in Berlin and Madrid. The dispute likely would not be completely resolved before the end of May, the March report read, adding that France had yet to spell out its specific reasoning at the time.

In addition, industry offers had come in at 25 percent above the budget ceiling of €2.5 billion (U.S. $3 billion) agreed by the partner nations for program stages 1B and 2, the Finance Ministry report stated. The companies also were expecting to receive “significant” additional services from the nations as in-kind contributions, it added.

 

helmutkohl

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For the moment, no official reaction from France...
having two powerful partners just seems like it'll lead to more deadlocks in Europe.

in a perfect Europe, they'd divide all the tasks
France does all the planes
UK does all the ships
Germany does all the tanks
Italy does all the helicopters
Switzerland does all the trainers
:cool:
 

Deino

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Archibald

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Bismarck would be in despair on where Germany has ended up.

Mind you, that doesn't prevent a lot of jerks and idiots in France, to still see Germany as a model... (facepalm)

WTH is happening to Germany, btw ? too much Merkel for too long ? Damn it, she has been there since the fall of 2005. Longer than Mitterrand (shudders).
 

TomcatViP

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I don't think that the tomahawk dance b/w Airbus and Dassault was of a great help. If you wonder what's happening with the Germans, they probably got bored.

SAAM-1973.167.40_1.jpg
 

antigravite

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Hi.

Some SCAF project news and updates (paywall) in today's "Le Monde" (French equivalent of the Washington Post).

[Le Monde avec AFP], "Avion de combat européen : accord entre la France, l’Allemagne et l’Espagne — Le système de combat aérien futur (SCAF) doit remplacer à l’horizon 2040 leurs avions de combat Rafale et Eurofighter." Le Monde, 07/05/2021.

Source:

A.
 

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TomcatViP

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Hi.

Some SCAF project news and updates (paywall) in today's "Le Monde" (French equivalent of the Washington Post).

[Le Monde avec AFP], "Avion de combat européen : accord entre la France, l’Allemagne et l’Espagne — Le système de combat aérien futur (SCAF) doit remplacer à l’horizon 2040 leurs avions de combat Rafale et Eurofighter." Le Monde, 07/05/2021.

Source:

A.

3.5B€ until 2024 (P1b phase). Considerably higher than the alleged budget capping of 2.5B.
The goal is to have a flying demonstrator by 2027 (instead of 2026 previously).
 

TomcatViP

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New noteworthy details from DefenseNews last report:

Flying demonstrator:
The new agreement includes only one demonstrator, to be built by Dassault, the spokeswoman said. Additional demonstrators, as some German lawmakers have called for, would have to be purchased extra, and the stipulation is that they must be identical to the first one.

Non government furnished items:
The figures now circulated essentially reflect that industry offers came in 25 percent higher than that, as Defense News reported last week. Additionally, national government contributions that industry previously took for granted – engines and airfield time, for example – are now formally priced in, a German defense source explained.

 
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Deltafan

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First "step" in the front of the German MPs on June 23...

 

TomcatViP

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Grey Havoc

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This will be, rightly or wrongly, likely seen as a sign that they are not that serious about the program.
 

Maro.Kyo

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I mean, it's a demonstrator. Having 2 of them built like in ATF or JSF, or 3 built so that each nation can have one, can be ideal, but 1 isn't necessarily bad at all I feel.

Also, given the past examples, if all things goes as planned, we would probably see the EMD prototypes around 2034~35, so around 7 years after the TD.
 

TomcatViP

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Given that there was no competition and that most budget allocations were done on the sole basis of the reputation of the firms involved, a 5% price decrease would even be a bargain.
 
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