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Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154/254

airman

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Well, Focke Wulf Ta-254 was project developed by Ta-154 ( originally denominated Ta-211)

This prototipe was projected with Junkers Jumo 213E with 1750 Hp instead of Jumo 211F of 1340 hp of Ta-154V1

speed 678 km/h @ 10.000 metres - services ceiling 11500 ( on close up publications there was an error 115000 )
range 1400 km

armament : 2x mk108 (110 rpg) ,2 x MG151 (200 rpg) , 6 x mk 108 (alternate) , 2 x mk108 (schräge), Musik if GM omitted ( radar ? ??? )

so i have attached proposed version A-0/U-3 the mistel composed by Fw190 / Ta-154
 

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toura

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Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Hi all

I've found this !! I don't understand German !
It's a TA 154 but, could you tell me, a version or
a project ?
 

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hesham

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

That's new for me my dear Toura,


I only know this variants.
 

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Jemiba

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

It's called "Sprengstoffträger mit hinten integriertem Führersitz", which means "carrier of explosives with the pilots seat
integrated to the rear of the aircraft". My explanation would be, that it was intended as a kind of flying bomb, with the
explosive charge stowed in te nose and the cockpit moved to the aft. It still seems to have a standard cockpit in the
nose, but retaining the cockpit hood may have been just an attempt to avoid building a completely new nose section.
No mention, if it was intended as a suicide weapon, but below the cockpit, there seems to be a hatch on the belly,
maybe intended as a way to leave the aircraft without the danger of the nerby tail surfaces.
 

toura

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Hello Jens
If I understand this is a studie which never
leave the drawing board.
Thank you very much my dear Jens
PAUL
 

hesham

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

My dear Toura,


what is your source,a book or a magazine ?.
 

toura

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Hi Hasan
I found this in
"Monogram - close up n° 22"
 

hesham

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Thank you my dear Toura,


I will get it.
 

hesham

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Hi,


it was called Ta 154 A-4.
 

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Justo Miranda

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Hi
 

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toura

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Thanks Heshamm
Thanks Justo miranda for details
 

Jemiba

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

The description as "Rammjäger" is somewhat inaccurate, I think. Ramming a bomber would have meant,
that the pilot would have had to stay in the aircraft up to the last second, a method that could work with
the single engined "Sturmjäger", which should damage tail surfaces or ailerons by ramming, but when
using a large explosive charge, the ejection seat would have been useless. So it probably was used as a
kind of missile, guided by the pilot until he reached a point still away from the bomber to eject. And then a
proximity fuse would have been mandatory, I think, because hitting a flying object directly with an unguided
aircraft, just flying about 200 km/h faster than its target, would have been not very probable.
 

_Del_

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

I suppose if the blast was big enough, actually hitting a bomber might be secondary to breaking up the box for other intercepting fighters?
 

Jemiba

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Yes, that's what the designation "Pulkzerstörer" (formation destroyer) implies, but aiming would have needed
a time fuse and very precise ranging then, if attack would have been started from the rear. And I'm not sure,
that this would have been the best direction for such an attack, as this quite large aircraft, flying a straight line
should have been an easy target for all rear gunners then.
 

Michel Van

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

toura made a fazinating Discovery

a unknown FW Ta 154 variant

that plane had a very tragic history, it face lack on everything to get build and in same time the RLM yes, No, what ever Politic.

in end the plane that had to be German answer to British Mosquito, became a "Sprengstofträger" or Mistel aircraft.
most literature show the Mistel of FW 190 on top of a Ta 154 with 2500 kg of explosive.
now toura find show another idea, remove the FW 190 and build a cockpit in the rear of the aircraft (with ejection seat ?)

It could be this also a ""Pulkzerstörer" (formation destroyer) were a Ta 154 fly into bomber formation and explode in 150 meter distance of bombers.
they study Mistel, two Ta 154 one piloted, the second the fly bomb connected by control wire to first plane.
seems they found a easier solution to that too…
 

Jemiba

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

The article mentions the use of four aircraft for testing. Maybe they would have still retained the conventional
cockpit for this time ? Would explain, why a principally disposable article still had a part, that certainly would
have increased productio time. Maybe the definitive service aircraft would have looked more like the sketch
below.
 

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hesham

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Excellent my dear Jens.
 

hesham

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 254

Hi,


from Monogram book about Focke Wulf Ta 154,here is the Ta 254 A-1 and
its variants.
 

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hesham

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Hi,


also from Monogram book, here is the Drawing Number 101014-22-100 of 1942,and
some drawing to Ta 154,TA 211 and Ta 254.
 

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Stargazer2006

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

I don't know if this has been said elsewhere on the forum yet, but the Ta 154 A - Fw 190 A-8 mistel was called "Beethoven" on an official Focke Wulf document dated Jul 18, 1944.
 

hesham

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

From Jet & Prop 5/2008.
 

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Jemiba

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Is there an explanation, if the series version would have retained the standard cockpit, or if it
would have been replaced by a solid nose (See discussion in the older posts, drawing is the same,
as in the very first post of this thread. ) ?
 

iverson

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Jemiba said:
Is there an explanation, if the series version would have retained the standard cockpit, or if it
would have been replaced by a solid nose (See discussion in the older posts, drawing is the same,
as in the very first post of this thread. ) ?

I am speculating, but I would think that the normal cockpit would be retained for training and ferrying, as with the Ju88 Mistel conversions. The warhead would have been a separate unit that would be bolted on only for combat operations.
 

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Maybe, but the main difference between the Ju 88 Mistel and this one especially is, that
there's no need for bolting on and off a cockpit section, something, that quite probably
wouldn't have been that quick, if we think of all the control rods and cables, that needed
to be connected and disconnected.
And though the Ju 88 had a distinctively separated nose section, I'm not that sure about the
Ta 154.
 

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Jemiba said:
Maybe, but the main difference between the Ju 88 Mistel and this one especially is, that
there's no need for bolting on and off a cockpit section, something, that quite probably
wouldn't have been that quick, if we think of all the control rods and cables, that needed
to be connected and disconnected.
And though the Ju 88 had a distinctively separated nose section, I'm not that sure about the
Ta 154.

For what it is worth, Robert Forsyth's Mistel: German Composite Aircraft and Operations, 1942-1945 (Classic, 2001):183 quotes a report by Schoefell of Focke Wulf:

"The fuselage can be separated for transfer purposes with simplifed cockpit. It will be possible to exchange the cockpit configuration with the explosive configuration in a few hours."

I believe that the Ju88 Mistels retained the bomber cockpit for training and ferrying even when flown from the Bf109 or Fw190 director. Needlessly flying around with a 2500-3500 kg explosive charge was probably not an attractive possibility in an aircraft that had to land again.

Re-routing the controls for the aft-cockpit design in the drawing would be no more complex than it would be for the more Mistel variant. And for training and ferrying, both of which require landings, flying from the front cockpit would be much safer and more practical than using the rear-fuselage cockpit.

My guess is that the rear fuselage cockpit was intended only for attacks. With no need to land, the poor view from the cockpit would be less critical. The configuration's attraction would be lower drag than a Mistel configuration, better handling and performance (both expected to be poor in the Ta154-based Mistel), and no need to fuel and fly a separate fighter. The downside would be that the pilot would have to walk home, which might be less of a problem over the Reich itself.
 

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Thanks for that clue ! So it really seems, that the standard nose section would have been still
used for training and relocation.
AFAIK, for the Ju 88/Me 109 or Fw 190 Mistel, the "standard nose" with controls was especially
important as a training device for the pilot of the fighter, as handling was very different.
 

kiradog

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Uncompleted Ta 154's found at Erfurt.

Question, the Kagero book on the Ta 154 shows the extended fuselage for the Jumo 213 powered V22 as a plug between the fuselage and tail (ala the FW 190 D-9). I'm not buying this as I have seen a photo of the destroyed V22 and it shows no such plug. Do any official drawings exist that show the actual extended fuselage? All the drawings I've seen are contemporary drawings.
 

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

I've never seen a Focke-Wulf drawing of any Ta 154 with the fuselage plug. There are photos, however, of a crashed machine, Werk Nr. 320008, described in the Griehl and Murawski/Rys books as a Ta 154A-2/U4, which seems to feature Jumo 213s and the fuselage plug. See photo of tail section. Note to modelers--this scan is of a picture that had been flopped--notice the backwards swastika.
 

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bigvlada

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Here's the original view.
 

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hesham

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

From Jet & Prop 3/2007,


here is the Ta.154C-2 project,and the Ta.154 fitted with BK 5 cannon.
 

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Wurger

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Excellent pics, Hesham, thanks a lot!
 

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Hi!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei03mkG8X1k
 

hesham

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

Hi,

here is a Focke Wulf Drawings No 101014-22.04,101025.02-10 & 101025.02-11,
also a clearer views to Ta.254,Ta.211 and Mistel Ta.154.

Luftfahrt History No.19
 

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 254

From the smithsonian
 

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sienar

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

From the Smithsonian
 

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

in french:
http://fighters.forumactif.com/t33886p25-revell-monogram-focke-wulf-ta154a-0-moskito
justo,do you have an original sketch about the project II with SHL 3000?
 

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Re: Focke Wulf (Tank) Ta 154

what is the name of the original report if you have it?
I found this on deutscheluftwaffe.com
http://deutscheluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/f/FockeWulf/projekte/Focke%20Wulf%20Mistel%20Ta%20154%20A/Focke%20Wulf%20Mistel%20Ta%20154%20A.pdf
 
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