• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Focke-Wulf swept-wing pusher fighter with contra-rotating propellers

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
6,049
Reaction score
406
robunos said:
Blackkite, I think you're right about the cooling air exit, and I've just found this, from Putnam's 'McDonnell Douglas' Volume 1, page 363;

"The laminar-flow wing with double slotted flaps housed the fuel tanks and the oil and coolant radiators which were fitted with ground cooling fans."

Later, on page 363-4, it says this; "...limited efficiency of the cooling ducts. Solutions...were found relatively quickly..."

I think these fans would have to have been driven electrically, and not directly off the engines.

cheers,
Robin.
Thank you so much Robin and Jens! ;)
Don't feel so sad Jens. Never mind. F1 car has no fan. ;)
 

Attachments

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
6,049
Reaction score
406
Wow almost jet fighter. :D
Beautiful! I want to see RC model flight movie of this fighter.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
6,049
Reaction score
406
At last I get this super book today from England. Many thanks Basil!
There is a following description for Focke-Wulf high performance fighter with Jumo 222E/F in page 36.

"This arrangement, which included a cooling fan to provide additional air flow when taxing and during take-off, permitted a reduction in the radiator's surface area."

It's hard for me to find radiator cooling fan in general arrangement drawing.
I also find that Curtiss XP-55 had engine over heat problem when taxing. XP-55 had limitation for taxing time. If pilot violated this limitation, engine over heat occured immediately.
Excuse me for frequent posts for this topic. I only want to know the truth. 
 

Attachments

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,022
Reaction score
212
And good to know it in the end ! Still strange, that some companies simply seem to have ignored,
what others already knew and even incorporated into their projects !
 

Basil

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
199
Reaction score
10
Blackkite, good to hear you like the book. It is much more structured than the book about bombers and the one about ground attack planes (different authors). Yes, it would be interesting to know of which kind of cooling fan it was thought of.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
6,049
Reaction score
406
You did it, Justo!! :D
How about challenge Kawanishi TB, too. ;)
 

Wurger

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
865
Reaction score
11
Excellent drawings, Justo. Only one remark: on the last page, the top engine is not the Argus As413. It is a project from the Daimler-Benz stable, a 24 cylinder H liquid-cooled engine intended to develop 4000Hp.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
6,049
Reaction score
406
I think bottom one had a electric motor drive cylindrical radiator cooling fan located the nose of the aircraft for taxing and ground engine test.
 

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,022
Reaction score
212
Orionblamblam said:
... and try again, tinker with the settings. Bleah.
Inversing and somewhat increasing contrast already makes it somewhat better, I think.
 

Attachments

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
6,049
Reaction score
406
Thanks! Very impressive design. :)
 

dannydale

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
212
Reaction score
2
Wow that is an awesome design bro! It reminds me of an olde-timey version of my hypothetical Little Yellow Reno Racer contrarotating-pusher-prop plane design a bit.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
6,049
Reaction score
406
dannydale said:
Wow that is an awesome design bro! It reminds me of an olde-timey version of my hypothetical Little Yellow Reno Racer contrarotating-pusher-prop plane design a bit.
Sorry off topic, but please show us your hypothetical Reno Racer.
 

dannydale

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
212
Reaction score
2
blackkite said:
dannydale said:
Wow that is an awesome design bro! It reminds me of an olde-timey version of my hypothetical Little Yellow Reno Racer contrarotating-pusher-prop plane design a bit.
Sorry off topic, but please show us your hypothetical Reno Racer.
This thing. I feel like I need to register it on the "Known Fakes" thread now. B)
 

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,022
Reaction score
212
dannydale said:
This thing. I feel like I need to register it on the "Known Fakes" thread now. B)
Looks a bit, as if Luigi Colani met Ralph McQuarrie ...
But as long, as it didn't appear somewhere, stated as "real", I wouldn't include it in the fake list, sorry ! ;)
 

dannydale

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
212
Reaction score
2
Jemiba said:
dannydale said:
This thing. I feel like I need to register it on the "Known Fakes" thread now. B)
Looks a bit, as if Luigi Colani met Ralph McQuarrie ...
But as long, as it didn't appear somewhere, stated as "real", I wouldn't include it in the fake list, sorry ! ;)
Thank you for the compliments. I love both of their work!
 

Justo Miranda

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
3,509
Reaction score
173
dannydale said:
blackkite said:
dannydale said:
Wow that is an awesome design bro! It reminds me of an olde-timey version of my hypothetical Little Yellow Reno Racer contrarotating-pusher-prop plane design a bit.
Sorry off topic, but please show us your hypothetical Reno Racer.
This thing. I feel like I need to register it on the "Known Fakes" thread now. B)
Beauty!
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
6,049
Reaction score
406
Indeed!! It may be a transonic prop Reno racer. :eek:
 

dannydale

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
212
Reaction score
2
Muchos gracias, Justo! Blackkite, that's kinda sorta the idea. Not sure if it was the Louisiana heat or the smoking pipe that got to me at the time B)
 

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
100
Flippin' heck! I actually DID store it in an "unidentified" folder of mine, thinking it was a genuine project... See?
 

Nick Sumner

Yabba dabba DOOOOOM!
Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
446
Reaction score
21
Hi Justo, in your post of 16th March, scan FW005, one of the engines is labelled 'Argus 413'. I have previously seen this drawing labelled 'Daimler Benz H24 project' (notably in LJK Setright's 'Power to Fly' but also elsewhere), do you have definite confirmation that it is the Argus engine? Just curious.
 

Justo Miranda

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
3,509
Reaction score
173
Sorry, I believe this is my mistake.
I received the information from an anonymous source.
 

dannydale

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
212
Reaction score
2
Stargazer2006 said:
Flippin' heck! I actually DID store it in an "unidentified" folder of mine, thinking it was a genuine project... See?
Oh snap! Guess it's off to the Known Fakes thread with the thing then, lol! To whom do I apologize? :D
 

Attachments

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,251
Reaction score
1,053
Hi,


does anyone hear about Focke Wulf P.0310.025-1005 fighter ?,which was
also from the same family of P.0310.025 aircraft .
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,251
Reaction score
1,053
hesham said:
does anyone hear about Focke Wulf P.0310.025-1005 fighter ?,which was
also from the same family of P.0310.025 aircraft .

I don't know if that drawing was to P.0310.025-1005 fighter project or not ?.


From Jet & Prop 5/1992.
 

Attachments

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,022
Reaction score
212
hesham said:
... P.0310.025-1005 fighter project ...
That's not a type, but a drawing number and the text says, that it was the "high performance
fighter", either to be powered by aa Jumo 222 or an Argus AS 413. The same type, as we had
before here. ;)
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,251
Reaction score
1,053
Thank you my dear Jemiba,


and I know the 0310.025 is a drawings number,I am asking if there is any 3-view survivor
to 0310.025-1005 ?.
 

pathology_doc

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
858
Reaction score
47
I wonder just how much a swept wing benefits a prop fighter. I know for straight winged aircraft that published figures for in-service aircraft suggest a sort of brick wall beginning around 475mph at full-throttle height and going up to 500mph for fighters with enough raw power, but there are two aspects to this - one is the local flow over the wing, which only really gets hairy in a dive (or possibly with buffet-boundary issues in high-altitude manoeuvering) and which either careful selection of section, thinning, or sweepback can alleviate; but the other is tip losses in the props at speed, which is a lot more difficult to get around with the sections then known.


You can get around the tip losses a bit by reducing prop diameter for the same RPM and adding blades (multi-bladed props, either as contraprops or five or six-bladed singles), but IIRC with the state of aerodynamics in the 1940s (even in Germany), you run up against problems there too.


I'm sure the engineers at FW (for which probably read, "Kurt Tank") figured there was nothing to lose, and with jet projects in the pipeline as well (either alternative powerplants or separate projects) the work on swept wings wouldn't be wasted, but it'd be interesting to see the comparisons.


OT: It seems to me that the flipside of this argument is the fitment of the Spiteful wing to the Supermarine Attacker - nominally the original elliptical Spitfire wing had the better high-Mach performance (or at least reached higher numbers when pushed to the limit), but it seems there were more obvious structural benefits in choosing the Spiteful wing despite its alleged lower critical Mach number (e.g. better performance vis a vis roll rates at high speed, resistance to aileron reversal, wide-track undercarriage and so forth, and probably a lot more that I don't know about). Among other things, I'm guessing that the low-drag part of the Spiteful section curve was predominant in the performance envelope in which a RR Nene could drive the airplane in S&L flight, which made for better fuel consumption and so on and so forth. Oh, to be able to pick Joseph Smith's brains on this one!
 

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,022
Reaction score
212
As the engine was to be relatively far aft, I'm wondering if chosing the swept wing
was purely for aerodynamic reasons, or maybe just for getting the CG in correct place ?
 

Steve Pace

Aviation History Writer
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
2,269
Reaction score
11
Look at the Curtiss XP-55 Ascender with its sweptback wings and rear engine. -SP
 

pathology_doc

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
858
Reaction score
47
Jemiba said:
As the engine was to be relatively far aft, I'm wondering if choosing the swept wing was purely for aerodynamic reasons, or maybe just for getting the CG in correct place ?

We may never be certain, since the return of the pusher into large numbers of design concepts wasn't until well into the era where compressibility issues started becoming important. CG issues are certainly a possibility; Wikipedia says XP-55 performance was under 400mph (at least with the V-1710 engine), suggesting it at least wasn't looking at compressibility problems in S&L flight.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
6,049
Reaction score
406
You can see static radiator three side view in the original drawings for the Focke-Wulf P.1310251-13/II.
Engine ram air intake position is interesting.
Main landing gear were twisted and retracted into the fuselage.

http://www.luft46.com/fw/fwp0310b.html

GEHEIMPROJEKTE DER LUFTWAFFE Jagdflugzeuge 1939-1945, Motor buch Verlag,1944, ISBN 3-613-02631-1
 

Attachments

Top