Feasibility Study For A Maritime Reconnaissance Aircraft - Hawker Siddeley Aviation Advanced Projects Group - 1962

[Barrington Bond]

What it says on the tin...

 

[Barrington Bond]

...next bit.

 

[Barrington Bond]

...bit more...

 

[Barrington Bond]

...last bit.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Presumably the torpedoes shown are the Sting Ray's 'ancestor', NASR 7511 (original design).

EDIT: No, I'm wrong, 1962 is too early for that.

 

[Antonio]

Many thanks Barrington, for that amazing documents you shared here

 

[TomS]

I was going to say that the early twin-engine design looks a LOT like an Atlantique. Then I saw that this was done in collaboration with Breguet, so that makes sense.

 

[CJGibson]

I was going to say that the early twin-engine design looks a LOT like an Atlantique. Then I saw that this was done in collaboration with Breguet, so that makes sense.

The story is in Nimrod's Genesis.

Chris

 

[TomS]

The story is in Nimrod's Genesis.

Ordered mine just now. Amazon US has it priced very low -- hope you still get your cut.

 

[fredgell]

Interesting material here.
I'm puzzled as to the airframe shown in MariiRA_0020

It almost looks like a Vanguard.

Fred

 

[Purpletrouble]

Fascinating stuff - what was this project / who from?

Why would you need/want swing wings for maritime patrol? That sweep angle is supersonic surely?

Is this some bomber or pre Concord thing repurposed - have never seen it before. I note it’s twin engined, and seems to put the habitated fus ahead of the pivot area. It’d have been massive, literally a Concord.

 

[Arjen]

@Purpletrouble HS. 1011, as described and shown on p.125-126 of Chris Gibson's Nimrod's Genesis.
On the same pages, the tri-engined HS. 1023.

 

[TomS]

@Purpletrouble HS. 1011, as described and shown on p.125-126 of Chris Gibson's Nimrod's Genesis.
On the same pages, the tri-engined HS. 1023.

Also here, though only with a passing reference to the maritime version:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/hawker-siddeley-type-1011.14058/

 

[Purpletrouble]

Thanks, wow, that’s an amazing thing. Mach 1.1 does seem a bit slow to carry the costs of swept wings let alone VG. Although pre oil crisis I see. I also hadnt spotted the fin engines!

Seems odd for maritime where the key requirement is stooging around efficiently at low speeds for ages (it more than meets the dash reqmt!), perhaps with wings fwd and say 2 engines turned off (ala Nimrod) it could?

 

[Grey Havoc]

Mach 1.1 was its cruise speed if I recall correctly.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

As well as the HS.1011, there's also the early version of the Avro Type 776, complete with the original FASS radomes, rather than the almost Soviet-esque bombardier's station and bulge for the ASV-21 radome.

 

[Scott Kenny]

HS1011 is a very interesting design, though I'm not sold on it needing VG wings. Cruising at Mach 1.1 or 1.2 shouldn't need wings swept enough to make a slow patrol run impossible or inefficient. I'd be willing to bet a 727 with different engines could do that.

185klbs of fuel, though...

 

[Purpletrouble]

HS1011 is a very interesting design, though I'm not sold on it needing VG wings. Cruising at Mach 1.1 or 1.2 shouldn't need wings swept enough to make a slow patrol run impossible or inefficient. I'd be willing to bet a 727 with different engines could do that.

185klbs of fuel, though...

Gorgeous as it is, having thought about it, completly unsuited to the maritime role. I’m also not sure why an airliner needs VG, just make the runways longer like they did for 707s. An airliner is pracically defined by being designed entirely around one very specific point, cruise.

Plus if that swept and with the weight and complexity burden of VG, I’d want the benefit to be near M2 cruise.

Perhaps I love it because its so close to a UK B-1. An aircraft I really love (my fantasy RAF leases a couple of sqns as Vulcan B3 replacements). Although in reality a maintenance pig.

 

[TomS]

Thanks, wow, that’s an amazing thing. Mach 1.1 does seem a bit slow to carry the costs of swept wings let alone VG. Although pre oil crisis I see. I also hadnt spotted the fin engines!

Seems odd for maritime where the key requirement is stooging around efficiently at low speeds for ages (it more than meets the dash reqmt!), perhaps with wings fwd and say 2 engines turned off (ala Nimrod) it could?

Think of it as a SOSUS pouncer. High transit speed to get to a datum before it becomes stale.

Didn't turn out to be necessary, but it's a colorable theory anyway.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Yes it could hustle out to sea at Mach 1.2 quickly swept wings and then slow down and efficiently patrol with spread wings. Probably need a tanker though

 

[Purpletrouble]

Fair enough, it cobbles together as a logic

But wasnt a key role of MPA to drop the sonobuoy barriers as a “mobile sosus” - that needs low speed loitering.

This thing’d be awful at that even wings forward, its carrying a fk ton of airframe weight with VG and the structurals for high speed not to mention sheer size from its length.

It does all point to Nimrod being a good call tbh. Sufficiently high speed for transit (the comparison being prop aircraft anyway) and strong courtesy older generation approach to design (bar windows…) and by turning off engines gives extra endurance. Also a nice sized fuselage and no extra sources of weight.

 

[Hood]

It was the 1960s, it was mandatory to submit projects that could feature in Gerry Anderson shows!

I love the looks of the HS1011 - which was meant to be a low-boom type - it made less sense as an MPA but you can't fault Hawker Siddeley for not offering the full range of options.