Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II

Foo Fighter said:
As I see it, I know laugh or I'll cry, ALL ground support should be unified so a properly coordinated manouvre can happen. Shirley would be blubbing into her G and T by now if this was the real world and/or an industrial cause celebre.

Has anyone seen the advert on the idiot box (Banking I think) where a veg barrow selling veg states that all p[urchase MUST be in crypto currency only? Very apropos to the management of the vast majority of defence issues.

Unless rotary and fixed wing of ALL variety, are unified we are going to go backwards and fail the GOTG (Grunt On The Ground) into the future. Going further, command and control, how on earth can air force C&C assets control ground units and why no army equivalent?

I am going to accompany my elderly neighbour to hospital shortly so I shall shut up and leave this before my brain boils over.
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Yes, I think that the USMC have the correct organization for that and the Army doesn't. Just not enough helos, as a reinforced battalion (MEU) has 3x UH1 and 4-6x AH1, plus 6x fast jets.

For whatever reason, the USMC has always focused on larger helicopters or tiltrotors as opposed to "squad size" transports. Admittedly, a UH1 is only going to carry half a USMC squad at full strength, but a 24pax Sea Knight or Osprey is only carrying one squad plus some attachments. Not two complete squads.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Yes, I think that the USMC have the correct organization for that and the Army doesn't. Just not enough helos, as a reinforced battalion (MEU) has 3x UH1 and 4-6x AH1, plus 6x fast jets.

For whatever reason, the USMC has always focused on larger helicopters or tiltrotors as opposed to "squad size" transports. Admittedly, a UH1 is only going to carry half a USMC squad at full strength, but a 24pax Sea Knight or Osprey is only carrying one squad plus some attachments. Not two complete squads.
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That cause during Nam the Army did test out a full helicopter born unit in the 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile).

And found that while it was extremely effective and mobile.

It was also extremely expensive and short legged once off the helicopters.

Expensive monetary to support all the helicopters, training and Gear. Especially when compared to their competitors in the Airborne.
Also the fact that they were extremely vulnerable to enemy fire if they needed to bypass the enemy to do something.

While the troops being unable to push as far or long as their Mechanized counterparts having similar endurance to, again, the airborne.

Resulting in the Airmobile *Division* concept being drop shortly after Nam.

Instead they moved to Air Mobile Brigades which are still with us. Which do have more then enough lift to carry itself to tge enemy, and enough organic AH64s to help with everyone else in the division as needed. And enough Blackhawks and Chinooks to yeet most of a brigade to where its needed.

Unlike the Marines who are limited by the Navy lift. And needing to you know, get off the bloody ship.

The Army generally doesn't have to worry bout that. Like the last time the Army had to worry how to get their soldiers into the fight was... Like nearly two hunderd years ago, in the Mexican American War. So the Army can focus on being a heavier force.

And as is an Army AirCav brigade let lose is a terrifying sight to be on the other end of. Over 100 helicopters of all three major types is nothing to scuff at. And remember a decent amount of those are Chinooks with a platoon of over 30 soldiers, that well over a battalion worth of troopers ready to ruin you day. Add in the few Squadrons of Apaches that blows the Vipers out of the water?

They earn the title of the cavalry. Especially since they are often the division QRF.

Add in that general driving up behind them is a Mechanized force of Strykers or Armor?

Eyeah the Army set up works extremely well.

Just need a fast mover, well faster then the helis, as heavy fire support and it be perfect.
 
Firefinder said:
Just need a fast mover, well faster then the helis, as heavy fire support and it be perfect.
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Assuming that USAF doesn't lose their minds over an armed tilt-rotor operated by the Army, I think there's still some need for a high-subsonic fast mover in addition to the "helicopter escorts", as a quick reaction force for the escorts, organic to the brigade. Or at least an extra gunship battalion above what we currently have, if the escorts are enough faster than the Valors/Ospreys.

Let the F-35s do their BAI and coordinated SEAD/DEAD to let an airmobile Brigade through, and have the Brigade's organic escorts do the CAS.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Assuming that USAF doesn't lose their minds over an armed tilt-rotor operated by the Army, I think there's still some need for a high-subsonic fast mover in addition to the "helicopter escorts", as a quick reaction force for the escorts, organic to the brigade. Or at least an extra gunship battalion above what we currently have, if the escorts are enough faster than the Valors/Ospreys.

Let the F-35s do their BAI and coordinated SEAD/DEAD to let an airmobile Brigade through, and have the Brigade's organic escorts do the CAS.
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IMHO, a good tiltrotor/compound with internal carriage can be fast enough, at least compared to A-10 (which isn't exactly fast when with full wings of ordnance).
Like, say, that Kamov picture from several years ago.
 
Scott Kenny said:
If they are planning on replacing them, I'd assume so.

Everyone else offloading their old Soviet stuff got good deals on new or refurbed US hardware.
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If any Ukraine friendly nation was indeed planning on replacing their Su-25 fleet, what exactly would the replacement airplane be?
 
While many have jumped on the A-10 comment (but of course...), the key point of the story/comments is that the Ukrainians want more air support and would take whatever is offered.
 
Looks like the US Air Force are going to get their way of getting rid of the A-10 by stealth that is by converting the A-10 units to other tasks. The whole issue stinks.
 
FighterJock said:
Looks like the US Air Force are going to get their way of getting rid of the A-10 by stealth that is by converting the A-10 units to other tasks. The whole issue stinks.
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It's an old aircraft outdated for the modern battle field and is increasingly difficult to support. People need to let it go!
 
Unfortunately, we are all too rapidly approaching the 2028 date which if I recall is what the last SLEP effort would extend their life to. Beyond that you'd probably have to start building a sizable number of new components, and those TF34 turbofans are pretty old now so they might be on the list too.

The fact is a lot of the A-10s unique capabilities would now only be useful in "low-intensity" wars such as COIN operations or smacking some tin-pot dictator into line. Considering the increasing age of the A-10 I would love to see such some of those capabilities retained and improved upon with a dedicated replacement, but all things considered such an aircraft would have to fall pretty low on the Air Force's list of priorities.

I would hope that maybe those A-10 pilots can be moved to F-35s but utilized in a way that their familiarity working with FACs and providing support to ground forces in direct contact with the enemy can be used most effectively. Most F-35s would inevitably be striking important targets beyond the front lines but it makes sense for some to still be tasked with requests from the poor guys in the infantry and armor.
 
While it is sad that the A-10 is going to be eventually retired someday, GTX, I have this nagging thought that the F-35 is not the replacement aircraft that the US Air Force thinks it is. And it is not a light turboprop aircraft either.
 
I have an itch at the back of my grey matter that suggests a certain training aircraft is being readied for the role as were read this thread.

At least, I think it's grey matter.
 
Foo Fighter said:
I have an itch at the back of my grey matter that suggests a certain training aircraft is being readied for the role as were read this thread.

At least, I think it's grey matter.
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No, that's you losing your hair... :p

You mean the T-7 as the CAS bird? Or an armed T-6 turboprop?


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I'm thinking that the Army needs to be sneaky and make their Apache replacement under FVL fast enough to be the A10 replacement, and do most of the CAS via CCA/Loyal Wingman drones. And have all of the other A10 features like armor and damage tolerance. Manned bird has the gun(s) so when you need to be putting fire on the enemy within 50m of friendlies, the pilots are right there on scene to see what's going on.

Just don't admit that the Future Attack Aircraft (or whatever they're calling the Apache replacement) is supposed to replace the A10 as well as the Apache. Don't admit that it can dive bomb with 1000lb bombs or whatever until it's in service with at least 500 airframes. Then go through and clear it for SDBs, JDAMs, Paveways, CBUs, and even 1000 and 2000lb dumb bombs.

Until then, the wing pylons are officially rated for 3500+lbs of stores because there's a requirement that needs ~500gal ferry tanks to achieve. Diving attacks are officially for rockets. Make a streamlined high-capacity Hellfire rack because you have the weight capacity available. Make a streamlined 3x19 rocket pod rack. (Yes, I'm basically talking about one of these aircraft having as much firepower as 3-4 Apaches do)

Once the aircraft is in service, then you can go ahead and hang 6x 500lb bombs on an MER, or 3x 1000lb bombs on a TER. Have someone design an 8-rack of SDBs in tandem quads, or however many you can pack into the volume of 6x 500lb on an MER.

And if necessary, have someone in the JAG office write up a revision to the Key West Agreement and whatever laws followed so that the Army owns CAS and USAF owns Interdiction and deeper strikes.
 
But what do the Army want as an Apache replacement? That is what I really want to know since they have done away with the FLRAA program they really do not know where to go next as far as future helicopters go. A more modern heavier Comanche type helicopter or what?
 
Scott Kenny said:
No, that's you losing your hair... :p

You mean the T-7 as the CAS bird? Or an armed T-6 turboprop?


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I'm thinking that the Army needs to be sneaky and make their Apache replacement under FVL fast enough to be the A10 replacement, and do most of the CAS via CCA/Loyal Wingman drones. And have all of the other A10 features like armor and damage tolerance. Manned bird has the gun(s) so when you need to be putting fire on the enemy within 50m of friendlies, the pilots are right there on scene to see what's going on.

Just don't admit that the Future Attack Aircraft (or whatever they're calling the Apache replacement) is supposed to replace the A10 as well as the Apache. Don't admit that it can dive bomb with 1000lb bombs or whatever until it's in service with at least 500 airframes. Then go through and clear it for SDBs, JDAMs, Paveways, CBUs, and even 1000 and 2000lb dumb bombs.

Until then, the wing pylons are officially rated for 3500+lbs of stores because there's a requirement that needs ~500gal ferry tanks to achieve. Diving attacks are officially for rockets. Make a streamlined high-capacity Hellfire rack because you have the weight capacity available. Make a streamlined 3x19 rocket pod rack. (Yes, I'm basically talking about one of these aircraft having as much firepower as 3-4 Apaches do)

Once the aircraft is in service, then you can go ahead and hang 6x 500lb bombs on an MER, or 3x 1000lb bombs on a TER. Have someone design an 8-rack of SDBs in tandem quads, or however many you can pack into the volume of 6x 500lb on an MER.

And if necessary, have someone in the JAG office write up a revision to the Key West Agreement and whatever laws followed so that the Army owns CAS and USAF owns Interdiction and deeper strikes.
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Ah, that makes sense. Going to change my glasses too.

I suppose I can save on anti dandruff shampoo though, looking to the positives.

Yes, talking about the T7.
 
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FighterJock said:
But what do the Army want as an Apache replacement? That is what I really want to know since they have done away with the FLRAA program they really do not know where to go next as far as future helicopters go. A more modern heavier Comanche type helicopter or what?
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I thought it was the FARA, the scout helicopter, that they canceled?
 
Quick question I've heard from many sources and people and don't know which is true, but are the retiring the A-10 or are they fitting new wings and engines on them?
 
XtraSaltee said:
Quick question I've heard from many sources and people and don't know which is true, but are the retiring the A-10 or are they fitting new wings and engines on them?
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The rewing program finished in 2019, giving 173 A-10s a potential service life through the 2030s.

www.airforcetimes.com

A-10 re-winging completed, will keep Warthog in the air until late 2030s

The new wings have an improved wire harness design, meant to make them easier to remove.
www.airforcetimes.com www.airforcetimes.com

They are also retiring other A-10s reducing the force from 282 to 260 in FY 23, another 42 in FY 24, and as noted above, possibly another 56 in FY 25. That will leave around 162 in the fleet.

There is no intention to reengine any A-10s.
 
I didn't know the re-winging gave them a service life out potentially to the 2030s. I had thought all of the refurbishments done gave a projected service life out until 2028. I guess that is good news if keeping those 173 aircraft around can be justified to the bean-counter, DoD, and USAF brass. At this point I think everyone has to recognize that further upgrades are very unlikely and any use the A-10 has against a near-peer opponent would be extremely limited.

I know uprated and improved versions of the TF34 were offered for the A-10 and I think other manufacturers offered alternatives, but the last time that was considered was many years ago. It isn't going to happen at this late date.
 

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