• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

EWR VJ-101C/D/E VTOL fighter projects

vstol

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
67
Reaction score
0
Website
www.vtol.org
sferrin said:
Dug this up a few days ago. For the life of me I can't remember where I got it originally.

This was from the briefing that I used to have on www.VSTOL.org. It was the presentation for the first paper in the V/STOL Encyclopedia series that I did with Boxkite (and later Jemiba):
https://vtol.org/store/product/german-vstol-fighter-programs-in-the-twentieth-century-8520.cfm


The 20th and final paper also covered the VJ101E propulsion system with the 3-bearing nozzle, a la F-35B:
https://vtol.org/store/product/jet-vstol-propulsion-systems-of-the-20th-century-5228.cfm


These (and most of the other papers in the series) are found on the AHS Online Store, along with 8,000 other documents going back to 1944. AHS members get access to all 800 Vertiflite magazines for free. A very useful resource for those interested.
 

vstol

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
67
Reaction score
0
Website
www.vtol.org
Dug this up a few days ago. For the life of me I can't remember where I got it originally.

And I should have mentioned, the photo was one I took at the Deutsches Museum http://www.deutsches-museum.de/en/flugwerft/information/ and the diagram was from "Die deutsche Luftfahrt: Flugmotoren und Strahltriebwerke"http://www.amazon.de/Flugmotoren-Strahltriebwerke-Kyrill-von-Gersdorff/dp/3763761071 (1995, p328). It also appears in "Deutsche Triebwerke" (1999, p97) along with a photo of the 3-bearing nozzle in full afterburner at night.
 

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
1,440
Reaction score
85
It is a shame that no similar drawings are available for the D and E studies. Bill Rose mentions in his book on VTOL Strike Aircraft that there were various versions of these.
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,119
Reaction score
1,025
uk 75 said:
It is a shame that no similar drawings are available for the D and E studies. Bill Rose mentions in his book on VTOL Strike Aircraft that there were various versions of these.

You are right UK 75,


and I will search in Germany magazines,may be find something about Type D & E.
 

Pioneer

Seek out and close with the enemy
Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
39
sferrin said:
Dug this up a few days ago. For the life of me I can't remember where I got it originally.
Very interesting!
I say interesting not because of the design concept, but because such a 'vectoring thrust' exhaust system which is often credited to the Soviet's, with a similar (but thanks to this post - 'later') arrangement for their Yakovlev Yak-141 'Freestyle' V/STOL fighter design.

Regards
Pioneer
 
Last edited:

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,208
Reaction score
396
3-bearing nozzle concept has been around forever. Generally the people who credit Yakovlev with it's invention are the same who think the F-35 is a Yak-141 with a red star painted on the side. ;)
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,119
Reaction score
1,025
Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Evolution of the joint design... the blending of the two designs is reasonably clear. From Luftfahrt International Issue 23.

My dear Paul,


here is anther drawing to VJ.101B,but differs in lift engines arrangement.


Flieger Revue Extra
 

Attachments

overscan

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,603
Reaction score
1,071
Barrington Bond said:
I think this might belong in this thread? EK-421
No, it actually more properly belongs in a VAK-191 / NMBR-3b topic, because its the EWR VAK-191 proposal. Will try and figure out the mess tonight :)
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
5,980
Reaction score
356
Oh cruise engine intake shape looks like TSR2. Beauty.
We can see lift engine doors in the picture,too. 3 doors for 5 engines.

Hi!
RB153 engine. This exhibition engine dose not include afterburner.
I can understand this line drawing of VJ-101D.
Bomb bay shape is interesting same as YF-107A.
 

Attachments

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
1,440
Reaction score
85
The vj101d seems to have been drawn and modelled in two completely different versions.
The one usually shown is the single seater F104 style fighter.
Flight International shows a 2 seater strike version model from a Paris Air Show. A three view of this appears in a 1964 book on military aircraft by William Green.
None of the online or magazine articles explain whether the two evolved or were developed together.
 

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
1,440
Reaction score
85
VJ101D evolution

I continue to be fascinated by the abortive German VJ101D Starfighter replacement of the early 60s.
Drawing together various sources already featured in an old thread here, I have found two distinct versions:

Single seater fighter/bomber


Two seater strike

I assume that the single seater evolved into the two seater, before the project was dropped.
The designs are very cool and of course totally impractical, but I would love to learn more.
 

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
1,440
Reaction score
85
Found my old Observers Book of Aircraft from 1964, the heyday of VSTOL.

It has a good entry with photo and three view of the VJ 101 C prototype

and this comment

"two prototypes of an entirely re-designed aircraft, the VJ 101D, which will not utilise
swivelling wingtip pods, are under construction."

In William Green's Warplanes of the World from about the same time, which I have
buried away in my book collection, there is a full page on VJ101D with three view and
models from Hannover of a two seat strike version. I am still looking for it.

Would love to know how far, if at all, they got with the two prototypes.
 

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
1,440
Reaction score
85
Thanks for bringing all the threads together.
My two questions about VJ101D are now:
When did the single seater evolve into the two seater?
Did any work start on the two prototypes?
oh and where did the VJ 101 E come from?
 

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
1,440
Reaction score
85
I have been trying to find my copy of a 1964 edition of Fighting Planes by William Green, image attached.

There is an excellent page about the VJ 101 D with pics of models and I think, a drawing of the two seater.

If anyone has a copy and could scan the page? I think it is old enough to be out of copyright.
 

Attachments

boxkite

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2006
Messages
825
Reaction score
38
This one? It was published in West German aero magazine from January 1965 (page 19), but based on the mentioned book by William Green.
 

Attachments

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
1,440
Reaction score
85
boxkite Many thanks. You will appreciate that it is very different from the three views of the single seaters.
When I first bought this book, in Foyles London in the late 70s I was astonished by this plane's appearance, almost like
a VSTOL TSR2.
Great to have this drawing here.
 

boxkite

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2006
Messages
825
Reaction score
38
So take this one too ;) . It's a little bit different from the drawing above, but comes from the factory archive.
 

Attachments

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
1,440
Reaction score
85
Thanks Boxkite
The plane looks like a cross between a
Starfighter and a TSR2.
It is interesting to compare with the P1154
which also had single and two seater versions
and the Mirage III vstol which also evolved
a two seater.
Reality of course made all these designs a
short lived fad. But they still look cool.
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,119
Reaction score
1,025
From L+K 2/1965,

its estimated speed was 2.0 Mach ?.
 

Attachments

overscan

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,603
Reaction score
1,071
This article is now offline, but Part 1 at least is archived at the Wayback Machine.

In February 1959, the companies Bölkow, Heinkel and Messerschmitt joined forces to Arbeitsgemeinschaft Entwicklungsring Süd GmbH to jointly develop a high-performance fighter aircraft with VTOL properties.

The company Heinkel has introduced into this community an aircraft project with vertical take-off properties, which later went under the designation VJ 101 A. Messrs. Messerschmitt introduced the VJ 101 B type.

From these 2 basic patterns, the VJ 101 C was later developed in the joint venture and continued until the construction of 2 experimental aircraft. The VJ 101 D as a successor model represents the development of an operational VTOL fighter aircraft. This series of investigations was discontinued in the summer of 1964 in favor of a more advanced concept. As can be seen from the illustrations 1 to 3, numerous variants were examined. The present compilation contains about 70 aircraft designs. Due to the sometimes very recent design studies, it was very difficult to compile extensive and complete documents. It must therefore be said that the present compilation can not claim to be complete.


VJ 101 A (illustration 4)
The starting point for the VJ 101 A was the idea of not providing separate engines for the VTOL phase. These lift-march engines, which are not in operation during aerodynamic flight, add extra weight, which reduces the payload. The fully swiveling lift-march engines are mounted on jibs or on the wings. The control during the VTOL phase takes place by means of shear modulation. During the cruise phase, the thrust surplus of the 6 engines is significant. In contrast, in the VTOL phase, the failure of one of the front engines can lead to an immediate crash. As can be seen from illustration 4, this concept shows a simple structure structure for the aircraft fuselage. The engine bearing in the wing and on the front engine carriers, however, meant new developments.

Technical specifications:
6 x RB 153 with afterburner VTO: Weight approx. 9,600 kp


VJ 101 B (illustration 5-9)
The VJ 101 B according to illustration 5 was introduced by
Messrs. Messerschmitt into the consortium EWR. This aircraft was approximately 7,000 kp and had RB 153 stroke-march engines and a RB 162 lift engine. The VTOL control was carried out via reaction nozzles by means of bleed air from the lift cruise engines.

The illustration 6 shows a simplified design of the representation 5. This is the design of an experimental aircraft for testing purposes. Since this aircraft is designed to be much lighter, 2 Hub-Marsch engines and 1 Hubtriebwerk were sufficient (Figures 7 and 8).

These types indicate a larger aircraft than the type in Figure 5. For this reason, a lifting engine was installed in addition to the existing engines. The difference in the arrangement can be seen from the illustrations.

Figure 9 shows a design with a fundamental change in the engine design. So far, the stroke thrust was oriented around the center of gravity, so in this study two engine groups can be seen. Behind the cockpit are two pure Hubtriebwerke, while the exit of the hub-marching engines for the VTOL phase was moved far into the fuselage tail. The hull underside around the center of gravity remains free for weapon loading.


Rocker for VJ 101 C - development (illustration 10)
As the first experimental device for testing pure thrust control, as it was the basis of the concept of the later test aircraft VJ 101 C, the rocker was built. It is designed so that the thrust effect on the movements of the pitch or roll axis, depending on the experimental arrangement, that corresponds to the planned aircraft. The tests created by their positive result only the conditions to continue in the development of VJ 101.
With this simple device could already be experimented in May 1960; Successively, the control in the pitch and roll axis by hand, then tested various autopilots.

The rocker is essentially a horizontal beam which is stored at one end while the other end is free to rock up and down. On this rocker beam an engine RB 108 is mounted so that its thrust moves the free-swinging beam end upwards.

At rest, the rocker bar is locked by a support in the horizontal position. At the "start" the pilot disengages this lock. A "flight" consists in lifting the rocker beam by engine thrust. Here, the thrust is set up to 80% by the throttle; a fine adjustment of up to + 20% is achieved via the joystick, resulting in a shear modulation range of 60-100%.

The controller is designed so that the rocker bar is in balance when the throttle is fully open and the stick is at zero. For a rash up then still the scope from hover to maximum thrust available.

Control excursions are possible between + 5 and + 15o to the zero position. The free movement is limited by two shock absorbers in front of and behind the pivot point of the rocker and can be fixed in the mentioned range.

Two different arrangements are provided for the control tests: For Nick exercises, the pilot seat is mounted on the free end of the beam, immediately in front of the engine, which acts as a fuselage engine; In this way, the movements of the planned aircraft about its transverse axis can be simulated with the rocker beam.

For roll exercises, only the position of the pilot's seat is changed; it is arranged on a lateral extension in extension of the pendulum axis. The engine now acts as a wing engine. In this way, the movements of the planned aircraft around its longitudinal axis can be simulated with the rocker beam.


Technical specifications:
Nick length arrangement: 6,330 mm
Roll arrangement:
5,000 mm
Wide pitch arrangement: 3,200 mm
Roll arrangement: 3,500 mm
Height:
3,800 mm
Engine: 1 Rolls Royce RB 108
Max. Engine thrust: 950 kp
Fuel tank volume (1 tank): about 520 l
Hover thrust: about 750 kp
fuel consumption: 1.05 kp / kp.h
Maximum flight time in limbo: 15 - 20 min


Floating rack for VJ 101 C - development (illustration 11)
The floating rack was developed as a simulation unit for the VJ 101 C during its development. Its geometry was designed after the design of the future test aircraft. As a result of the test results could draw immediate conclusions on the behavior of the future aircraft. Such an experimental device allows a significant saving of time, money and risk.

Since 1961 were tested with the Schwebegestell: vertical take-off and landing, hover, control in all three axes and altitude. The control movements are done by changing the thrust (thrust modulation) and - when yawing - by pivoting the wing engines and can be carried out both by hand and with automatic control (autopilot). Therefore, the Schwebefestell also provides excellent services in the training and retraining of test pilots for the VJ 101 C.

The steamer's steel tube hull (with side outriggers), which is unclad because of better access to all units, carries - at the same distances from the center of gravity as the planned aircraft - three RB 108 engines: two at the "wing" ends and one in the fuselage, in front of it the pilot's seat. Likewise, the chassis in gauge, wheelbase and location corresponds to the center of gravity of that of the aircraft. The controller is the same.

In the first experiments, the floating frame was "tied", ie, stored in its center of gravity with universal joint on an extendable column. In March 1962 it flew free for the first time, after vertical start from a concrete slab. Under the fuselage, from rudder to side engine, a sail was stretched to simulate the influence of the soil, simulating the effect of the wings. The results are excellent: in every control function not only manual, but also steerable via autopilot, this experimental unit fulfills all its tasks.


Technical specifications:
Length: 11,500 mm
Width: 10,200 mm
Height: 3,250 mm
Engines: 3 Rolls Royce RB - 108
Max. Thrust per engine: 950 kp
Fuel Tank Volume (2 tanks): about 900 l
Max. Lift-off weight incl. Fuel (545 kg): 2,400 kg
fuel consumption: 1.05 kp / kp.h
Maximum flight time (10% fuel reserve): about 12 min
 

flateric

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
8,801
Reaction score
251

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
1,440
Reaction score
85
It is very sad that so little has emerged about the wonderful looking but impractical vj101 d and e aircraft and the equally mad AVS. Oh well I live in hope
 
Top