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EWR VJ-101C/D/E VTOL fighter projects

Thorvic

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Following on from UK75's Post on a VTOL Lutwaffe 1975 i was wondering if anybody had the dimensions for the VJ-101 D ?. I can find stuff on-line for the B, C and E but not for the D :mad:
 

Jemiba

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You're right, I couldn't find length and span dat, too ! Only by comparison of the
VJ-101D with the VAK191B, both with RB 162 lift engines, I've got a length for the
VJ-101D of 22m (without pitot) and a span of 10m. But I'll have a closer look ...
 

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Jemiba

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Don't think so, and on these photos, there aren't so much
similarities :
(from Aviation_Week_1964, FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL 1965 )
 

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archipeppe

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It seems to have more than one point of contact with the FIAT G95-4 project of mid '60s.
 

Jemiba

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"It seems to have more than one point of contact with the FIAT G95-4 project of mid '60s."

If, then more to the larger G.95-6, I think
 

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Barrington Bond

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The author of the article I got the piccy from thought it looked rather like TSR2 :D

Regards,
Barry
 

archipeppe

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Jemiba said:
"It seems to have more than one point of contact with the FIAT G95-4 project of mid '60s."

If, then more to the larger G.95-6, I think

You are right, I didn't remember well if the larger was the "4" or the "6".

Thanks Jemiba!!
 

uk 75

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Does anyone know the timeline for the various versions illustrated above of the VJ 101 D

The final version seems to be the two seater TSR 2like strike plane rather than the more F104like
single seater.

The project dies in 1964 and gives way to a mysterious VJ 101 E. Although numerous drawings exist of
VJ 101, there is remarkable littlle in the way of info about how the Luftwaffe planned to use the plane, and if any work was done with future squadron users. After all, between 1962 and 1964 this plane was the planned mainstay of the Luftwaffe.

UK 75
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

Nice model pics from http://unusual-gallery.com/study_models/uk_Heinkel_231_VJ101A.htm
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

Last one. Internal designation was He-231.
 

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uk 75

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It would be interesting to know at what point the VJ 101 D changed from the single seater
F104 style aircraft to the later two seater almost TSR 2/HS 1129 aircraft.

The VJ 101 E design then comes in from nowhere. It is a shame that there are no German fans
of this project who could do the sort of excellent research into this project that has been done in the UK on TSR 2 and HS 1154.

There are appearance parallels between the VAK 191 (Fiat G91 replacement) and the AVS/2 seater VJ 101 D (strike aircraft to replace nuclear F104s) and the UK's TSR 2/ 1154 combination. Was there any interchange between the UK and West Germany, as in the 1963-65 timescale their solutions to the Germany strike problem are similar, but also completely different.

A mid-70s NATO frontline with these types would have look brilliant (I know, I know, they couldn't have worked..)

UK 75
 

Hood

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William Green's 'The World's Fighting Planes' 1964 edition has some info on the EWR-Sud VJ101D and a line drawing.

"As currently projected, the VJ101D will be powered by two 6,850lb RB.153-61 tourbofans... reheat jet pipes boosting the thrust of each engine to 11,600lbs. These power plants are to be fitted with switch-in delfectors which will enable the entire dry thrust to be used for lift which will be augmented by five RB.162-31 lift engines each developing 5,500lbs." Gross weight 35,000lbs. It says the role is strike and reconnasisance but doesn't give any armament or radar details.

The drawing doesn't add anything to those above.
 

starviking

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Hood said:
William Green's 'The World's Fighting Planes' 1964 edition has some info on the EWR-Sud VJ101D and a line drawing.

"As currently projected, the VJ101D will be powered by two 6,850lb RB.153-61 tourbofans... reheat jet pipes boosting the thrust of each engine to 11,600lbs. These power plants are to be fitted with switch-in delfectors which will enable the entire dry thrust to be used for lift which will be augmented by five RB.162-31 lift engines each developing 5,500lbs." Gross weight 35,000lbs. It says the role is strike and reconnasisance but doesn't give any armament or radar details.

The drawing doesn't add anything to those above.

Sounds very much like vj_101d_2.jpg, the third image in Overscan's post of the 16th of August
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

Better 3 view of Heinkel VJ-101A from Luftfahrt International Issue 23.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

Better three views of Messerschmidt VJ-101B from Luftfahrt International Issue 23.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

The story gets more interesting than I thought. It appears EWR was founded from Bölkow, Heinkel and Messerschmitt in 1959 order to develop the VJ-101. So, the VJ-101A and VJ-101B are more correctly seen as ancestors to the VJ-101C than rivals.
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

Very interesting indeed. ;)

I find it fascinating that both Heinkel and Messerschmitt continued to use their own "He ***" and "P.****" designation systems which went back to World War II and even before.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

Evolution of the joint design... the blending of the two designs is reasonably clear. From Luftfahrt International Issue 23.
 

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Jemiba

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

In an article in FlugRevue from the '70s, I think, there was a version
of the VJ-101A with 4 engines, instead of the 6 in the later version.
Will look up this evening, if the type is mentioned.
 

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Nik

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

Well, they certainly get enough wingspan for hard-points...

I take it that, like Harrier, all will need 'puffers' bleeding high pressure air for low-speed control ??
 

Jemiba

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

Nik said:
I take it that, like Harrier, all will need 'puffers' bleeding high pressure air for low-speed control ??

AFAIK and as the attached drawings from the DaimlerChrysler Aerospace brochure "Meilensteine
der Luftfahrt: Die deutschen Senkrechtstarter" seem to show, flight control during the hover
was completely achieved by thrust modulation.
 

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fightingirish

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

Jemiba said:
In an article in FlugRevue from the '70s, I think, there was a version
of the VJ-101A with 4 engines, instead of the 6 in the later version.
Will look up this evening, if the type is mentioned.
See Flug-Revue , April 1973, page 48 ;)
 

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fightingirish

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

From Flug-Revue, April 1973, page 49 and February 1972, page 37 ff.
 

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Stargazer2006

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

What does the "P1227" designation correspond to? Is it anything to do with Hawker's project designation system? And if so, why? (in my list, I have the Hawker Siddeley P.1227 as a "Harrier II development") Or is it a German "P-" system, and for what manufacturer? Messerschmitt, maybe?
 

fightingirish

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

Stargazer2006 said:
What does the "P1227" designation correspond to? Is it anything to do with Hawker's project designation system? And if so, why? (in my list, I have the Hawker Siddeley P.1227 as a "Harrier II development") Or is it a German "P-" system, and for what manufacturer? Messerschmitt, maybe?
Stargazer2006 said:
Very interesting indeed. ;)
I find it fascinating that both Heinkel and Messerschmitt continued to use their own "He ***" and "P.****" designation systems which went back to World War II and even before.
Stargazer, I think you answered your question already.
Heinkel -> VJ-101A
Messerschmitt -> VJ-101B
 

Cy-27

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

At the museum at Oberschleißheim back in 2010 there was a VTOL display centred around the Dornier Do.31 exhibit.

These included a large scale VJ 101C X2 (marked D-9518) and a Messerschmitt penned VJ 101B model (with a VJ 101C X2 behind for good measure).
 

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Jemiba

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

In the magazine „Klassiker der Luftfahrt“, 03/13 a letter to the editor, written by a former student apprentice at the Heinkel GmbH,
mentions a design for the He 231, called “Projekt II”, which had a conventional tail, forward swept wings with 4 engines, fitted with
afterburners at the tips and a fifth engine without afterburner, but with swiveling nozzles in the tail.
Anybody, who has more information about this design ?
 

Jemiba

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Re: Evolution of the EWR VJ-101C

Just as a suggestion, what the „Projekt II“ could have looked like, I’ve spoiled a drawing from the „Klassiker der Luftfahrt“ magazine, staying with the
known He 231 design, as far as possible, as the mentioned comment suggests, that it this layout was regarded as just another option (not very well
liked by Heinkel himself). I have no precise data for the sweep angle of the wing and not for the kind of intake for the rear engine, of course, so : Source
Grade 1, highly speculative !
 

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sferrin

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Dug this up a few days ago. For the life of me I can't remember where I got it originally.
 

richard

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Many many thanks MOIN1900 : you are right , this is really great !


Most of the fourth part was unknown to me !
 

hesham

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Great find my dears Moin 1900 and Sferrin,


and we can put them here;
 

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hesham

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And;
 

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